Dutch LBA in CHS 158c

[ny59giants]

I am in mid 4/42 in my PBEM game and some of my Dutch LBA are coming back after their 90 days at Sydney. However, they are coming back with all their planes and pilots with experiences in the 40's. Their morale is initially 0, but starts to improve.

There are no planes in any of the Dutch LBA pools. [X(][X(]
Where are the planes coming from?? [&:][&:]

[Ian R]

Which version are you playing  - Stock etc? Was there a slow trickle of reinforcements plus some disbanded unit's machines, or none? Were any units withdrawn as opposed to disbanded/destroyed?

[ny59giants]

They were disbanded. I have one Dutch squadron with 2 planes and 22 pilots and accept replacements turned on. That's why I'm asking how these reformed squardons come back with a full compliment of planes. I expected it and others to come back without planes and then use my extra B-25's to fill out the bomber squadrons. 

[Hoplosternum]

If you are playing Stock (or probably any other mod) they should come back with Hudsons (or whatever the upgrade to the Dutch planes are). It is the only way that you can get the Dutch to upgrade before July '42 IIRC. You can't upgrade / change any Dutch planes until July'42 normally, but by disbanding or withdrawing squadrons you can sometimes get the upgrades*. They won't upgrade if there are enough of their original plane in the pool to fill out the returning squadron - but this is unlikely to be the case as the Dutch get few replacements.

The reason why the experience is so low is because the Dutch start with low experience for all replacements. Plus the pool of pilots is small so often filling out a returning squadron will use all the pool pilots (that are about 50 or so) and then recruit the free pilots which are the base dutch experience - halved. Hence the pilot experience can be really low.

One of the long term problems using the Dutch (if you save the squadrons) is that while the front line units gain experience they are very brittle, unlike the Australian, US and UK flyers. Even their proper reinforcement pilots (when there are enough in the pool) are low. And the pool refills very slowly so often replacements come in with about 25 experience. No match for the Japanese flyers whatever plane you put them in. Much better used in rear areas as ASW or on Naval Search where they are unlikely to fight often.

So what planes are the returning squadrons flying? Is it possible that the returning squadron has used up all the available LBAs?

* Some consider this a gamey move if done deliberately.

[el cid again]

We are having problems (??? if they are problems) with Allied aircraft replacements. Reportedly Aussie units appear with ROC colored Soviet I-16s!! It appears that Allied "nations" are not all alike: while a USN plane won't appear in a USMC upgrade - unless the mod specifically points to it for that unit - apparently ANY Allied plane from a non-major "nation" (which, curiously, is a service - USN, USAAF, USMC) will work for ANY Allied air group.

I also think we have a new pattern a couple of releases back: IF there are not enough planes to create a new air group when it should appear - AI hunts around for some obsolete plane to give it. If it finds even 1 plane- the unit appears.

[ny59giants]

I just got these 2 Dutch LBA squadrons at Sydney after being disbanded for the 90 days.
4-2e-VLG-IV Group 6 planes Brewster 339D
2-1e-VLG-V Group 8 planes Brewster 339D

Most of their pilots ended up in the squadron below. Note, I have over 40 pilots there with only 5 planes. Again, my question is where do the planes and pilots come from?? [&:][&:]

[Historiker]

A Present from the Aboriginees! [&o]

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I just got these 2 Dutch LBA squadrons at Sydney after being withdrawn for the 90 days.
4-2e-VLG-IV Group 6 planes Brewster 339D
2-1e-VLG-V Group 8 planes Brewster 339D

Most of their pilots ended up in the squadron below. Note, I have over 40 pilots there with only 5 planes. Again, my question is where do the planes and pilots come from?? [&:][&:]

I have seen units appear, creating planes out of thin air. It appears that the game first tries to fill out the unit with the planes it had when withdrawn. If the pool is empty, it tries to fill it out with something in it's upgrade path that is in the pool. I got some Martin units coming back with Dakotas. If all else fails, it appears to create a random number of aircraft out of thin air. This is all just speculation on my part.

I've never seen too many pilots in one of these units.

Bill

[bradfordkay]

It appears that "Disband" is not working correctly. I had disbanded some Dutch units, with orders not to reform in 60 days and yet they still returned - with aircraft conjured up out of the blue. It's not a game breaker, as these are fairly worthless aircraft and when they get shot down there are no replecements to fill out the squadrons.

[Ian R]

In one messsage you say they were disbanded, in another withdrawn for 90 days.
 
As Brad says they come back if disbanded (and are pretty useless until they can later upgrade to Kittyhawks and B25s).
 
But your comment about the Fighter units with the 339 version Buffaloes being withdrawn has me confused. The answer to the planes question is affected by that.
 
The pilots answer is easy:
 
There is a pool with a trickle into it of badly trained pilots for the Dutch through the war. Representing the historical trickle of civil pilots, escapees and emigres who were recruited during the war.  Designed I think to support maybe one unit (of 24 planes, ie a group of 2 or 3 of the splinter units depicted in the stock game) which historically was a B25 unit that formed in Australia in 1944 IIRC. In the game you could leave three 8 a/c bomber splinters somewhere out of the way and let them train for 18 months while the pilot pool filled out, then send them North so it works out.
 
That pool also gets the pilots from disbanded units. I don't think the withdrawn ones go there, I think they stay with their unit until it shows up again. Could be wrong.
 
If a unit forms, or needs pilots due to losses, and there are none in the pool, then green untrained pilots are assigned. They are not from the pool (which is the trained pool) and their experience is very low. You never run out of pilots in an absolute sense.

[el cid again]

Someone said the disbanded pilots go into the national pool. Wether or not that is the case, it does sometimes happen equipment devices will go into pools for some technical reason: I once noticed a device with zero replacements sometimes was able to provide replacements anyway - and that was the explanation. So there is a lot going on under the hood - some of it more complicated than you might guess. Apparently in the device case, if the device upgraded in a unit, the old one might go into the pool. I thought they just "disappeared" - and if you put a different device in the formation slot - that is the case. But not in the case of the upgrade - or so it was said. I am unable to proove more than that sometimes devices with zero production/replacements still occasionally generate devices in units. I speculate planes are similar. I note that the official - not just manual but programmer - stated rules for what planes you can upgrade to must be incomplete: sometimes things appear on the option list that should not - sometimes even from the wrong side.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Someone said the disbanded pilots go into the national pool. Wether or not that is the case, it does sometimes happen equipment devices will go into pools for some technical reason: I once noticed a device with zero replacements sometimes was able to provide replacements anyway - and that was the explanation. So there is a lot going on under the hood - some of it more complicated than you might guess. Apparently in the device case, if the device upgraded in a unit, the old one might go into the pool. I thought they just "disappeared" - and if you put a different device in the formation slot - that is the case. But not in the case of the upgrade - or so it was said. I am unable to proove more than that sometimes devices with zero production/replacements still occasionally generate devices in units. I speculate planes are similar. I note that the official - not just manual but programmer - stated rules for what planes you can upgrade to must be incomplete: sometimes things appear on the option list that should not - sometimes even from the wrong side.

I always get them confused, I believe Disband only puts the planes in the unit disbanded into and takes the unit out for 60 days with the pilots staying with the original unit and Withdraw puts the pilots and planes into the unit you are disbanding into with a 90 day delay on return.

In 1.801, you could withdraw a unit in the home hex for that nationality and put the planes and pilots into the pool. Disband put the planes in the pool and kept the pilots with the unit. That feature only existed for that one version.

It was removed because of concern that the Japanese player would train up pilots flying transports and patrol planes, then disband them into the pool and get them back flying fighters. I still feel the possible gaminess was outweighed by the ability to get rid of some units entirely (for a while) when planes are in short supply, such as the early going for the Allies or the end game for the Japanese. I've used it to deal with the early war fighter shortage the US always ends up with. There are not enough obsolete fighters in the pool to downgrade West Coast units, and a lot of West Coast units are flying P-40s that are needed at the front. The best thing solution is to take them to San Francisco and disband them into the pool, so the P-40s can be used at the front.

Bill

[Ian R]

The withdraw/disband process is indeed confusing.