Pre-WWI Possibilities?

[MPHopcroft1]

Now that I'vwe finally got my game back, I've been tooling around a bit. I tried to win Waterloo as the French again, and failed. I'm not convinced a French win IS possible.

The small board and heavy troop concentration gives you few options, if any. There are always enemies in front of you. If you can, you must attack them madly and continuously. Your only hope of avoiding a catastrophic defeat is to somehow shatter both opposing armies before they have a chance to regroup and defend their primary objective hexes. I'm not convinced this is entirely possible.

Nonetheless, the exercise, futile though it is, got me thinking. what other battles or campaigns of the 1792-1904 era can TOAW handle? Are there campaigns even earlier it can manage? If someone could come up with a weapon stat for things like muskets and pikes, would Thirty Year's Wars campaigns be possible? what about certain ACW campaigns like the ones that led up to Shiloh and Antietam? would the March Through Georgia be a viable scenario? what about the Franco-Prussian war that humiliated and finally deposed napoleon III and set the stage for modern Germany?

I'd wanted a Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War game for some time. Might this, with some tweaking, be it?

[Silvanski]

There are several interesting pre WW1 scenarios ,originally designed in ACOW with 19th century engine , but can be converted to TOAWIII for use with the 19th century EQP file
Make sure you have TOAWIII patch 3.1.0.9 installed
 
Look here for a list of scenarios and the EQP file.
 
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/hosted/19thcentury/index.php
 
 

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

Nonetheless, the exercise, futile though it is, got me thinking. what other battles or campaigns of the 1792-1904 era can TOAW handle?

As you said, the Franco-Prussian War, and the American Civil War (up to a point). Conflicts in a period where communications were relatively sophisticated.

Are there campaigns even earlier it can manage? If someone could come up with a weapon stat for things like muskets and pikes, would Thirty Year's Wars campaigns be possible?

No. The important factors in earlier periods are totally different from the modern era and TOAW doesn't even touch on them. How can you determine whether your army can find forage or not, whether an army does the wrong thing because it has no information on events of the previous turn, etc?

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

Now that I'vwe finally got my game back, I've been tooling around a bit. I tried to win Waterloo as the French again, and failed. I'm not convinced a French win IS possible.

The small board and heavy troop concentration gives you few options, if any. There are always enemies in front of you. If you can, you must attack them madly and continuously. Your only hope of avoiding a catastrophic defeat is to somehow shatter both opposing armies before they have a chance to regroup and defend their primary objective hexes. I'm not convinced this is entirely possible.

Jeez! Am I going to have to post a "Detailed Waterloo first turn" too? I've clobbered the Allies as the French on more than one occasion.

Nonetheless, the exercise, futile though it is, got me thinking. what other battles or campaigns of the 1792-1904 era can TOAW handle? Are there campaigns even earlier it can manage? If someone could come up with a weapon stat for things like muskets and pikes, would Thirty Year's Wars campaigns be possible? what about certain ACW campaigns like the ones that led up to Shiloh and Antietam? would the March Through Georgia be a viable scenario? what about the Franco-Prussian war that humiliated and finally deposed napoleon III and set the stage for modern Germany?

I'd wanted a Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War game for some time. Might this, with some tweaking, be it?

The answer is that no one can really know until someone tries. Don't listen to the naysayers. They are the same people who long ago "proved" that man can't fly and therefore refuse to look up whenever a jet roars overhead.

[rhinobones]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
. . . Don't listen to the naysayers . .

ditto

Regards, RhinoBones

[a white rabbit]

..ignore our pet Conservatiiiiive, reactionary apple..
 
..yes, t3'll do what you want, but it'l take a lot of work with a paint prog, and a little work with the BioEd..
 
..the engine's sound, it works across history, a test run on the Battle of the Pyramids showed that, pure toaw, great fun if a tadge inaccurate..
 
..if it helps i use 2.5k hexes as the base(considered as 20m hexes) and day turns to avoid hiccups, heat, night etc are set in the EvEd..genuine elephants would be nice and will arrive one day (Elmer intervention in 2 player games..sighhhhh, i dream...), this is for t3-ancients but for reasonable Nap stuff, s'easier..
 
..NB that's loads'a work with a paint prog, you have been warned

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The answer is that no one can really know until someone tries. Don't listen to the naysayers. They are the same people who long ago "proved" that man can't fly and therefore refuse to look up whenever a jet roars overhead.

Mm. So how does an army forage in TOAW?

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Mm. So how does an army forage in TOAW?

That's where you have to get creative.

One way is to constrain the scenario so that the things TOAW doesn't do well don't matter. Take "Killer Angels 1863". The scope of it (map and time range) are limited to areas and intervals that both sides could easily have stayed supplied. The map prevents Lee from traipsing off to Philidelphia, or Meade on to Richmond, or either into the Blue Ridge. And the time range negates any need for more advanced logistical issues.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

That's where you have to get creative.

One way is to constrain the scenario so that the things TOAW doesn't do well don't matter. Take "Killer Angels 1863". The scope of it (map and time range) are limited to areas and intervals that both sides could easily have stayed supplied. The map prevents Lee from traipsing off to Philidelphia, or Meade on to Richmond, or either into the Blue Ridge. And the time range negates any need for more advanced logistical issues.

The trouble is that operational warfare in these periods tends to involve one stack maneouvring with regard to one other stack. The variations aren't very interesting unless you have a tactical module- which you don't in TOAW.

[MPHopcroft1]

which is why Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War would be great games if Mr. Koger could be bothered to develop them.

[rhinobones]

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

which is why Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War would be great games if Mr. Koger could be bothered to develop them.

Don’t know if there are any legal limitations that came with the Matrix acquisition of TOAW, but I expect that Matrix could produce the Art Of War you propose. Seems that they have all of the talent and community input they would possibly need.

Regards, RhinoBones

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
The trouble is that operational warfare in these periods tends to involve one stack maneouvring with regard to one other stack.

False in both "Killer Angels 1863" and "Waterloo 1815", and I think in the other scenarios in the Pre-WWI folder as well.

The variations aren't very interesting unless you have a tactical module- which you don't in TOAW.

Not even desireable, much less necessary.

[MPHopcroft1]

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

which is why Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War would be great games if Mr. Koger could be bothered to develop them.

Don’t know if there are any legal limitations that came with the Matrix acquisition of TOAW, but I expect that Matrix could produce the Art Of War you propose. Seems that they have all of the talent and community input they would possibly need.

Regards, RhinoBones

Before they do so, they would have to be convinced it was worth their while -- which, in a business, means that it would bring in considerably more money than creating and producing it would require them to dole out. They would have to know there is a market currently for that specific type of game.

And I obviously do not mean this as an insult to matrix when i say that nobody can produce a quality PC game from scratch quickly. It simply isn't humanly possible. It's taken ten years to convert World in Flames to a PC game and they're STILL ironing out the details before it's ready for public release, not because they're bad at it -- to the contrary -- but because the task is so enormous and complicated. No doubt when Norm Koger and his team set out to create the original Operational Art of war they were facing a gargantuan task and knew it.

It simply isn't something that can be done simply because one gamer suggests it would be neat.

[rhinobones]

From scratch? Why start from scratch?

My intention was to use TOAW III as the baseline for development of an Art of War. A large part of the code exists, graphics exist, the equipment file can be edited . . . time and distance scale would seem to be some of the bigger problems to over come. There are certainly other obstacles, but nothing that would seem to be insurmountable.

Oh, and for those who need it, foraging too.

Regards, RhinoBones

[a white rabbit]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The answer is that no one can really know until someone tries. Don't listen to the naysayers. They are the same people who long ago "proved" that man can't fly and therefore refuse to look up whenever a jet roars overhead.

Mm. So how does an army forage in TOAW?

..at my scale, use off-map supply point with very low range, add on map slow or no move supply units with very low range..

..at campaign scale, cities and major ports permanent supply points loss-tagged to enemy captures nearby towns, reappears x moves after recapture if city not destroyed

..market towns seasonal fixed supply units, only in summer and autumn, low range..

..only use all-weather roads on land, and then only in Roman Empire, maybe use invisible rail in sea hexes for sea transport, if you can do all bridge rail so much the better as it gives pirates something to do..

..see, s'easy..

..edit..foraging then is simply going and sitting on or near a supply point

[a white rabbit]

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

From scratch? Why start from scratch?

My intention was to use TOAW III as the baseline for development of an Art of War. A large part of the code exists, graphics exist, the equipment file can be edited . . . time and distance scale would seem to be some of the bigger problems to over come. There are certainly other obstacles, but nothing that would seem to be insurmountable.

Oh, and for those who need it, foraging too.

Regards, RhinoBones

..wot 'e said..

..plus why go from scratch, got the best engine available and the means to make it squeak..

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

False in both "Killer Angels 1863" and "Waterloo 1815", and I think in the other scenarios in the Pre-WWI folder as well.

Oh you're right. At Waterloo both sides had two stacks.

Not even desireable, much less necessary.

We've been over this at TDG; but take your Waterloo scenario. You do all your preliminary maneouvrings- and then you roll a dice with various modifiers. Highest score wins.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

From scratch? Why start from scratch?

Because it will probably be quicker. If you have a wardrobe and a lump of timber, which is the best thing to start from if you plan to build a table?

I don't really know a great deal about the legal issues- but there'll probably be something.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

False in both "Killer Angels 1863" and "Waterloo 1815", and I think in the other scenarios in the Pre-WWI folder as well.

Oh you're right. At Waterloo both sides had two stacks.

Not even desireable, much less necessary.

We've been over this at TDG; but take your Waterloo scenario. You do all your preliminary maneouvrings- and then you roll a dice with various modifiers. Highest score wins.

Based upon those two completely false statements, I can only assume you've never even opened it up, much less tried it. I may need to do a "How to..." AAR thing after all. There's at least as much going on in Waterloo as in any other scenario of similar size.

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..at my scale, use off-map supply point with very low range, ...

whoooo! Hang on there. I didn't knew you could add a range to supply points in TOAW. So, how did you do it? [&:]