Slowing Down the Japanese

[rubisco]

I'm about to start a PBEM game and I'm looking for a way of slowing down the Japanese player to a more historical pace.

One idea that strikes me is to have a house rule that specifies that amphibious landings may only be carried out by troops that have at least 14 Prep Points for the hex to be invaded.

Is this feasible? Has anyone tried this before? Is 14 PPs enough?

[Nomad]

I dislike house rules that can't be verified - besides who cares? Let him run for a while. You just have to put speed bumps out and wait it out. You will get your turn later. Just don't lose more than you can afford.

[moses]

I'd like to see an AAR with a historical start (or scenario 16) and 2 day turns. I might try it myself when I'm done with my current war. (I just can't handle two campaigns simultaniously with a life)

I expect that both of these items prevent a lot of foolishness and certainly slow these down to a more historical pace.

[Yamato hugger]

Well speaking from experience. 1 day turns I usually over run all of NEI / PI / Malaya / PM / New Calidonia by 15 Feb 42. 2 day turns it took me until late May 42. 2 day slows the Jap advance a lot.

Edit: This isnt against the AI btw. I dont play against the AI.

[moses]

Thats what I suspected.

The historical turn prevents japanese teleportation on turn one and thus allows the allies to form a defence, weak though it may be.

2 day turns slow things down in general. Half the air transfers and loading/refueling in port takes an extra day. Ground warfare is also slowed slightly as attacks can only be initiated every other day. Plus risk to the attacker is increased. An unsupported attack that gets in trouble is now doubly so. And when operations are disrupted it is more difficult to redirect traffic to deal with the situation.

[ChezDaJez]

Try CHS. It slows things down a lot.

Chez

[Yamato hugger]

It does slow things somewhat. A lot is a relative term. I wouldnt say a lot. A couple of weeks because the Jap land forces start further away (China and Japan instead of mostly in Indo China).

2 day turns is the way to go. Also get further into the war faster.

[bradfordkay]

There are more reasons that just starting positions why the CHS slows things down. One is the reduced capacity of shipping; the Japanese cannot make landings willy-nilly all over the place because they don't have the shipping to take the troops there.

[rubisco]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I dislike house rules that can't be verified - besides who cares? Let him run for a while. You just have to put speed bumps out and wait it out. You will get your turn later. Just don't lose more than you can afford.

I'll actually be playing the Japanese.

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

There are more reasons that just starting positions why the CHS slows things down. One is the reduced capacity of shipping; the Japanese cannot make landings willy-nilly all over the place because they don't have the shipping to take the troops there.

True. Add limited resources on CHS + 2 day turns and things will slow down a lot.

[String]

Historical first turn, or atleast a start where no other targets are invaded than the historical ones and no other TF's are out at sea than the historical ones.


Also, as an allied player, good surface interdicition and hit and run attacks with your bombers, especially torpedo bombers, will force your opponent to play cautiously and advance slower than he otherwise would. That or suffer the consequences.

It is my opinion that if the japanese player uses the KB to support pacific operations instead of DEI invasion he can be eventually stalled.

If he doesn't he can't really invade without risking getting caught with his pants down by allied carriers.

[crsutton]

Would it not be easier to just sharply reduce Japanese fuel stocks? Seems like they never have to worry about fuel.

[Yamato hugger]

Even in CHS fuel isnt a problem for the Japs.

[String]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Even in CHS fuel isnt a problem for the Japs.

and it wasn't in real life either, atleast not until late war. Getting it to where it was needed however was, and running large fleet ops brings out the same problems in chs. Hell, not enough pre-planning and you're out of fuel quick enough even in stock.

[Feinder]

The best way to slow down Japan, is to fight back. There is a common ground somewhere between suiciding the Allies against Japan, and playing “ye olde Sir Robin”.

If the Allies push back too hard (or in the wrong places), and the Allied forces die unnecessarily. Everything becomes weaker, and it ultimately makes Japan’s job much easier.

Frankly, there is much to said for Sir Robin, despite all the cat-calls from the other fan-boy club. Sir Robin does preserve your forces. But when Japan is invading New Zealand in February, you should consider the fact that Sir Robin might should have fought just a little harder.

Finding the sweet-spot in between the two is hard to find, but THAT is what slows down Japan. It’s NOT easy fighting back. Japan knows where your guys are (and aren’t). He knows what you’re generally capable of. You can do everything right, and you’re -still- going to lose ground. The trick is to at least stomp on Japan’s foot at every (reasonably) opportunity.

It’s hard to say where that sweet spot is. It depends on your Japanese opponent. Basically, you have to find out how to wound him, and wound him every time he moves. You don’t have to kill him, you’re not going to be able to do that. But just make each grab painful, and that is what slows Japan down. Maybe it’s attriting pilots thru LBA battles. Maybe it’s by creating bastions in your defense line. Maybe it’s by running “light” SC TFs to disrupt his supply convoys. Maybe it’s thru strat bombing of his back-field, to make him withdraw fighters. Maybe it’s showing up with your CVs on a lightly defended invasion, only to run away before KB gets there to punish you. Maybe it’s a little bit of everything.

And keep moving stuff forward, and plan ahead. There’s very little excuse to have 3 available divisions sitting in San Francisco, with 150 AKs in Pearl Harbor. Get your guys on the line, they do you no good in SF (and if they -are- doing you good in SF, you’re already screwed).

Above the Zero-bonus, I hate the invasion bonus. I’m not saying Japan shouldn’t have it (not going down that road). I’m just saying I breathe a big sigh of relief on April 1st, 1942. The Zero-bonus is overrated (IMO). It’s 90 exp pilots that are slaughtering your sucky planes, more than a +whatever to maneuver.

It’s funny – I usually see a flurry of activity from Japan during the first 4 months (capitalizing on the invasion bonus), and then it slows dramatically. Next follows about 3 – 4 months of chess moves (or sheer boredom) until “ye massive CV battle”, where one side or the other will get pummeled, and the other side then resumes the initiative. Still, in most of my PBEM games, even against very experienced opponents, things MOSTLY held to a relatively historical time-table (over-all). Maybe Sing fell earlier here. Or Java held longer there. But besides the usual grabs for Port Moresby (usually a gonner), or in my Bilbow game, north Oz has fallen, the rest of the game is “pretty much” on a historical time-table. Things might have been “accelerated” in January, but they get bogged down “somewhere” and then things slow down.

If you’re getting your butt kicked in March, just take your licks for another few weeks. That invasion bonus expires soon. After March, Japan usually does move slower, simply because she actually does have to prep for invasions.

-F-

[Historiker]

Only bad, if your opponent already landed in India in late January 42 - as in my PBEM...

[mc3744]

As useful as it is, I'll say it: [:)]
I entirely agree with String and Feinder.

My two additional cents.
Every Jap opponent has his own game style. Find it and you'll know how to slow him down.

When I play a new opponent the first month or two I'm super cautious. Then I usually begin to see a pattern, a game style.

Does he like to mass the CVs? Does he like to use Betty's as LB or ship killers? Does he care about subs?
He is trying to be realistic or just using all the means available in game terms? What are his favorite fronts: Burma, China, DEI, North Pacific, New Guinea, ...? Does he uses paratroopers or barges or PT boats? Does he care for ASW warfare? Air transports? ...
Depending on his focus on air, sea, ground and type or unit (after years of play [:D]) you kind of know where to hit back.
No one will be the same, but everyone has a weak point ... you too [:D][:D]

[ctangus]

I agree with everyone here. [:D]

CHS does slow down the Japanese advance. (Later allied advance as well.) 2 day turns seem to slow things down. I'm personally happy to play against a non-historic first turn, but not an outrageous one that would make an implausible game. And the allied player can do a few things to slow down the Japanese.

I'll add a few more points:

- Under the initial onslaught it's easy to see the Japanese as all-powerful. And it's true that in the early game that they can concentrate an overpowering force more or less wherever they want. But they can't do that everywhere. That's where you need to try to inflict some damage - on the flanks. You just can't as the Japanese take the whole map & protect yourself everywhere.

- A lot is made about Japanese knowledge of the allied OOB. That's not too hard too mess with though. If an opponent's trying to take your bases with a carefully-calculated, bare-minimum force even reinforcing with 2 Dutch batallions can cause a failed invasion and a second wave. And in the future it will force more recon, stronger invasions, etc.

I always try to reinforce a random point or 3 along the Japanese advance. With varying degrees of success I've done so at Mindanao, Kuching, Palembang, Balikpapan, Kendari, Amboina & maybe more places.

- Feinder's right: the Japanese invasion bonus is a big deal. (I'm fine with the rule - the Japanese player doesn't have a chance to prep forces in the months before the game starts.) Anyways it does make a big difference while it's in effect. For that reason I always try to hold both Singapore and Luzon until at least March 15th, d@mn the losses. Ship in supply as long as the sea lanes are safe. Fly it in until your opponent stops you. Ambush his air raids if you even have half a chance.

- On a similar note I think "Sir Robin" is much overrated. That might be partially because I have a May '42 start under my belt and I don't have any remnants of the ABDA/Phillipines/Malaya garrisons to play with in that game. (They'd be nice to have, but I frankly don't need them.) But as long as a unit is useful in its original theater I'll use it in hopes of slowing down the Japanese. Once it's usefulness is over I'll try to evac it in full if I have a chance, but not before then.

I particularly think the common wisdom of evacing Dutch base forces is unwise. If they can build forts & provide aviation support for you in the DEI, they can buy a month or two or three. That gives time for your reniforcements to come in. By July '42 or so the short supply of aviation support starts to lessen.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Even in CHS fuel isnt a problem for the Japs.

ORIGINAL: String
and it wasn't in real life either, atleast not until late war. Getting it to where it was needed however was, and running large fleet ops brings out the same problems in chs. Hell, not enough pre-planning and you're out of fuel quick enough even in stock.

In the real world, Japan was hoarding oil before the war. Their reserve when war broke out was a six month supply with heavy operations.

The game actually does a fairly good job of simulating this feature of the Japanese economy. Oil and fuel are plentiful at first, but if more isn't coming in from the DEI by June or July 1942, they are in trouble.

Bill

[ChezDaJez]

The best way to slow down Japan, is to fight back. There is a common ground somewhere between suiciding the Allies against Japan, and playing “ye olde Sir Robin”.

I think BradfordKay has found that common ground....grrrr....

Chez