optional rules

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: dale1066

With regard to the optional rules is it worth (has it been done in CWif already ? if so apols) indicationg if the rule tends to favour the axis, allied or neither side ? IIRC in the rules/ Game Design notes originally there was this information and it helps make a more balenced game when the experience/skills of the players are taken into account.

Some of those evaluations are controversial. And even those that clearly favor one side, by how much is not clear. Since it is not really part of my task list, I haven't included it.

[Jimm]

There is a weighting of options, by relative benefit to each power, in one of the old annuals/ LOC. Not sure how accurate it is (taken from a relatively small sample I think) but they generally bear out common sense- however most are not comprehensively pro-axis or pro-allied - they help or hinder individual powers. So to my mind its not that clear cut. When an option definitely helps one or other side it is generally obvious anyway!

[dale1066]

Fair enough in order to help novices to the game will there be anywhere in Cwif, inside the Help/tutorials for instance,
which will point to Wif Resources on the net?

[brian brian]

I find most optionals to be pro-attacker or pro-defender; since each side roughly spends half the game attacking or defending a lot of them balance out across the whole game, but that's just my opinion; many folks have definite ideas on which are pro-Axis or Allied.


One of my favorite innovations in WiF has been fractional odds, so I'll repeat myself here: I'm not sure if it was invented in the WiF community but it is a great way to play wargames. I'll probably never go back to playing without it. You are rewarded for throwing in whatever you can into an important attack; the days of time-consumingly and quite unrealistically re-arranging your entire army to get just enough factors to make the next odds level are over. In WiF it wipes out a lot of extraneous fighter-bomber missions for that one or two extra points. It also improves most anyone's play as they realize the implications, resulting in faster play and more focus on the big picture that the designer is trying to paint for you. There is some resistance to the idea; some people only want to use it to go to half-odds levels like 3.5:1 in conjunction with the 2d10 and you are back to factor counting; others want to throw out all rounding of anything and just keep adding up factors and die roll modifiers with no rounding at all and let the calculator generate the final plus on the 3d10, which I kind of like to eliminate a bit of cheese, slow down the attacker a little bit and try and lower the land unit density, which can get a bit ridiculously high late in a game of WiF, but not rounding things is hard to recall after playing WiF for a long time. The third die in a fractional odds + 2d10 also makes for great wargaming tragedy and comedy ... if it wasn't for that darn 1 on the fractional I would've stayed at a 13 - / - result, now I am at 'Magic' 14. ARRRRGHHHHH! The flip side comes when you take Gibraltar via the third die getting the result up to the coveted "S" result. Try it, you'll like it.

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: Neilster

So Christopher, did you include fractional odds at all? I thought they helped prevent gameyness and if the computer is doing all the work...

Did we finally thrash out the groupings of options that were pro-Axis, pro-Allied and neutral? Players could further refine their optional rules in light of these.

Cheers, Neilster

I did in the "Advanced version" - it's already part of that package as proposed by Steve.

I personally use fractional odds and greatly prefer it to its absence, so now that I think about it I'm not sure why I suggested it not be included in the "standard" package. I've never played with the 1d10 table, so I have no strong feeling one way or another about it in the "novice" package, aside from it having the feeling of "chrome".

[Jimm]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I find most optionals to be pro-attacker or pro-defender; since each side roughly spends half the game attacking or defending a lot of them balance out across the whole game, but that's just my opinion; many folks have definite ideas on which are pro-Axis or Allied.


One of my favorite innovations in WiF has been fractional odds, so I'll repeat myself here: I'm not sure if it was invented in the WiF community but it is a great way to play wargames. I'll probably never go back to playing without it. You are rewarded for throwing in whatever you can into an important attack; the days of time-consumingly and quite unrealistically re-arranging your entire army to get just enough factors to make the next odds level are over. In WiF it wipes out a lot of extraneous fighter-bomber missions for that one or two extra points. It also improves most anyone's play as they realize the implications, resulting in faster play and more focus on the big picture that the designer is trying to paint for you. There is some resistance to the idea; some people only want to use it to go to half-odds levels like 3.5:1 in conjunction with the 2d10 and you are back to factor counting; others want to throw out all rounding of anything and just keep adding up factors and die roll modifiers with no rounding at all and let the calculator generate the final plus on the 3d10, which I kind of like to eliminate a bit of cheese, slow down the attacker a little bit and try and lower the land unit density, which can get a bit ridiculously high late in a game of WiF, but not rounding things is hard to recall after playing WiF for a long time. The third die in a fractional odds + 2d10 also makes for great wargaming tragedy and comedy ... if it wasn't for that darn 1 on the fractional I would've stayed at a 13 - / - result, now I am at 'Magic' 14. ARRRRGHHHHH! The flip side comes when you take Gibraltar via the third die getting the result up to the coveted "S" result. Try it, you'll like it.

Fair comment, you are quite evangelical! I feel myself becoming converted.

I am still interested to see how this side the game is covered in Mwif- my expectation was that the dice rolling was pretty much "invisible" and the results just get churned out- the players wouldnt need to worry about combat tables etc. Or maybe not?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Jimm

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I find most optionals to be pro-attacker or pro-defender; since each side roughly spends half the game attacking or defending a lot of them balance out across the whole game, but that's just my opinion; many folks have definite ideas on which are pro-Axis or Allied.


One of my favorite innovations in WiF has been fractional odds, so I'll repeat myself here: I'm not sure if it was invented in the WiF community but it is a great way to play wargames. I'll probably never go back to playing without it. You are rewarded for throwing in whatever you can into an important attack; the days of time-consumingly and quite unrealistically re-arranging your entire army to get just enough factors to make the next odds level are over. In WiF it wipes out a lot of extraneous fighter-bomber missions for that one or two extra points. It also improves most anyone's play as they realize the implications, resulting in faster play and more focus on the big picture that the designer is trying to paint for you. There is some resistance to the idea; some people only want to use it to go to half-odds levels like 3.5:1 in conjunction with the 2d10 and you are back to factor counting; others want to throw out all rounding of anything and just keep adding up factors and die roll modifiers with no rounding at all and let the calculator generate the final plus on the 3d10, which I kind of like to eliminate a bit of cheese, slow down the attacker a little bit and try and lower the land unit density, which can get a bit ridiculously high late in a game of WiF, but not rounding things is hard to recall after playing WiF for a long time. The third die in a fractional odds + 2d10 also makes for great wargaming tragedy and comedy ... if it wasn't for that darn 1 on the fractional I would've stayed at a 13 - / - result, now I am at 'Magic' 14. ARRRRGHHHHH! The flip side comes when you take Gibraltar via the third die getting the result up to the coveted "S" result. Try it, you'll like it.

Fair comment, you are quite evangelical! I feel myself becoming converted.

I am still interested to see how this side the game is covered in Mwif- my expectation was that the dice rolling was pretty much "invisible" and the results just get churned out- the players wouldnt need to worry about combat tables etc. Or maybe not?

I do not want to create some elaborate system (e.g., calculating the probability of an attack being successful). But showing the current odds is reasonable. As for the dice, there is a player interface option to 'see' the dice rolls - or not.

[brian brian]

there is already plenty of statistical info on the outcomes of the 2d10 table available. I never read that stuff myself but I would like to know the final odds, or 'plus' on the 2d10 and the fractional before making the irrevocable attack decision and I always figured that would be visible to the player.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

there is already plenty of statistical info on the outcomes of the 2d10 table available. I never read that stuff myself but I would like to know the final odds, or 'plus' on the 2d10 and the fractional before making the irrevocable attack decision and I always figured that would be visible to the player.

This is actually harder than it sounds. You don't always know before the attack if HQ Support, Bombardment, or Air Support will be used. The results of air combat are incredibly random, which make generalization difficult.

[composer99]

Bombers flying ground support are the big X-factor in trying to calculate combat odds/2d10 modifiers.
 
I usually start by calculating the mods with no ground support (as I control shore bombardment and the outcomes of HQ support are predictable). Then I work up a worst-case scenario (I get no gs through, opponent gets all available support through), a best case scenario (opposite result), and what I think is a reasonable approximation of the actual ground support clearance.
 
Then I decide if an attack is worth proceeding with. But that might be too much to expect of MWiF to have it calculate all that for me. That's okay, though, I like the mental exercise.
 
 

[Froonp]

CWiF did show you the combat odds in the status bar when you were planning attacks, and also as you added shore bombardment & support.
For sure, this was theorical combat odds because air to air combats were not yet fought, but at least you knew what your CR were with & without air support.

Nothing prevents you to look at the map and see what available support the enemy have, and to calculate the odds you would have if his support went through. At worst, you can assume that the enemy has enougth ground support to double its combat units combat factors, thus halving your mods.

[brian brian]

What Froonp said. If you can't factor enemy capabilities into your decisions the enemy will soon be beating you. It will be so nice to have the computer tally all the combat factors without clicking through all the stacks though.

[Zorachus99]

Not knowing the interface I can't help.  I have no idea if this function exists.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

What Froonp said. If you can't factor enemy capabilities into your decisions the enemy will soon be beating you. It will be so nice to have the computer tally all the combat factors without clicking through all the stacks though.

Yes, but you do that on the real game too. You look under every pile of units to find those ground support planes.

IIRC, Steve said that he did not want to give too many help tools for the player, so I'd be suprised if you had a list of all Ground Support Planes that can reach a given hex (would be great feature : Right Click an hex / Available Enemy Ground Support, and have the list [:D] [X(] [:D] [8D] wow would be GREAT)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: brian brian

What Froonp said. If you can't factor enemy capabilities into your decisions the enemy will soon be beating you. It will be so nice to have the computer tally all the combat factors without clicking through all the stacks though.

Yes, but you do that on the real game too. You look under every pile of units to find those ground support planes.

IIRC, Steve said that he did not want to give too many help tools for the player, so I'd be suprised if you had a list of all Ground Support Planes that can reach a given hex (would be great feature : Right Click an hex / Available Enemy Ground Support, and have the list [:D] [X(] [:D] [8D] wow would be GREAT)

I have on my 'desireable' features list the ability to identify all air units that can reach a hex (not disorganized, air missions available when required, ...). I am calling these "unit lists" and already have some code in place to support them as part of the interface.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I find most optionals to be pro-attacker or pro-defender; since each side roughly spends half the game attacking or defending a lot of them balance out across the whole game, but that's just my opinion; many folks have definite ideas on which are pro-Axis or Allied.


One of my favorite innovations in WiF has been fractional odds, so I'll repeat myself here: I'm not sure if it was invented in the WiF community but it is a great way to play wargames. I'll probably never go back to playing without it. You are rewarded for throwing in whatever you can into an important attack; the days of time-consumingly and quite unrealistically re-arranging your entire army to get just enough factors to make the next odds level are over. In WiF it wipes out a lot of extraneous fighter-bomber missions for that one or two extra points. It also improves most anyone's play as they realize the implications, resulting in faster play and more focus on the big picture that the designer is trying to paint for you. There is some resistance to the idea; some people only want to use it to go to half-odds levels like 3.5:1 in conjunction with the 2d10 and you are back to factor counting; others want to throw out all rounding of anything and just keep adding up factors and die roll modifiers with no rounding at all and let the calculator generate the final plus on the 3d10, which I kind of like to eliminate a bit of cheese, slow down the attacker a little bit and try and lower the land unit density, which can get a bit ridiculously high late in a game of WiF, but not rounding things is hard to recall after playing WiF for a long time. The third die in a fractional odds + 2d10 also makes for great wargaming tragedy and comedy ... if it wasn't for that darn 1 on the fractional I would've stayed at a 13 - / - result, now I am at 'Magic' 14. ARRRRGHHHHH! The flip side comes when you take Gibraltar via the third die getting the result up to the coveted "S" result. Try it, you'll like it.

A couple observations:
- Optionals that favor the attacker IMO must favor the Axis. Their early successes can put the Allies on the permanent defensive or at least in a lower than 50% position.

- You make it sound like you roll the third die with the others (although I may be misinterpreting), but in our games the players often want to know the fractional odds outcome before choosing the table, when they have the choice. I'd hope MWiF implements it so that you resolve the fractional odds before Blitz or Assault is chosen.

Cheers.

[brian brian]

never thought of that, we just roll three dice at once. rolling for the fractional and then picking the table seems totally wrong and would throw away all the time you just saved not counting factors to get exact odds levels. it sounds like some in your group are suspicious of the 3rd dice...I'd wager they are slow players to start with.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I find most optionals to be pro-attacker or pro-defender; since each side roughly spends half the game attacking or defending a lot of them balance out across the whole game, but that's just my opinion; many folks have definite ideas on which are pro-Axis or Allied.


One of my favorite innovations in WiF has been fractional odds, so I'll repeat myself here: I'm not sure if it was invented in the WiF community but it is a great way to play wargames. I'll probably never go back to playing without it. You are rewarded for throwing in whatever you can into an important attack; the days of time-consumingly and quite unrealistically re-arranging your entire army to get just enough factors to make the next odds level are over. In WiF it wipes out a lot of extraneous fighter-bomber missions for that one or two extra points. It also improves most anyone's play as they realize the implications, resulting in faster play and more focus on the big picture that the designer is trying to paint for you. There is some resistance to the idea; some people only want to use it to go to half-odds levels like 3.5:1 in conjunction with the 2d10 and you are back to factor counting; others want to throw out all rounding of anything and just keep adding up factors and die roll modifiers with no rounding at all and let the calculator generate the final plus on the 3d10, which I kind of like to eliminate a bit of cheese, slow down the attacker a little bit and try and lower the land unit density, which can get a bit ridiculously high late in a game of WiF, but not rounding things is hard to recall after playing WiF for a long time. The third die in a fractional odds + 2d10 also makes for great wargaming tragedy and comedy ... if it wasn't for that darn 1 on the fractional I would've stayed at a 13 - / - result, now I am at 'Magic' 14. ARRRRGHHHHH! The flip side comes when you take Gibraltar via the third die getting the result up to the coveted "S" result. Try it, you'll like it.

A couple observations:
- Optionals that favor the attacker IMO must favor the Axis. Their early successes can put the Allies on the permanent defensive or at least in a lower than 50% position.

- You make it sound like you roll the third die with the others (although I may be misinterpreting), but in our games the players often want to know the fractional odds outcome before choosing the table, when they have the choice. I'd hope MWiF implements it so that you resolve the fractional odds before Blitz or Assault is chosen.

Cheers.

Ah, no.

My guideline is RAW August 2004 and there is nothing in there about this. It sounds like a house rule. In MIWF the 3 dice are rolled at the same time.

[Froonp]

My guideline is RAW August 2004 and there is nothing in there about this. It sounds like a house rule. In MIWF the 3 dice are rolled at the same time.

I seem to remember the contrary from the CWiF game.
First you knew what the odd were (fractional odd rolled just before).
Then you chose the table.
Then the game rolled the game and you knew the result.
Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

[Froonp]

I must be wrong, as RAW has it in sequence or play order, and in 11.16.5 Resolving attacks, you have :
- Choosing combat tables
- Odds ratios (whithin which there is Option 41: (Fractional odds))
- Rolling dice
- Results

And the Option 41: (Fractional odds) is spelled that way :
*************************************
Option 41: (Fractional odds) Round to a whole number in favour of the defender, then work out how far to the next odds ratio you are. Round this in favour of the defender to the next 10%. Roll a die just before rolling the combat die (you could roll it with the combat die if you want), to see if you find the result on the lower odds or the higher odds. If you roll the percentage or less, you resolve it on the next higher odds, otherwise on the lower odds.
*************************************

So the fractionnal odds are not rolled before you choose the table, but after.