First 24 hours -- First Impressions, Bugs, Etc

[bis9170]

Hi all,

Well, this is definately a case where having the option to try out a Demo copy beforehand would have been nice. "It's Matrix Games," I said to myself. "They don't rush games out the door...."

Well.... Has a very "unfinished" feel to it. Maybe this has indeed gone through a ton of Beta testing over the past year or three, but still seems like a lot of what folks are complaining about has either been missed, or chalked up to "Oh, that will be fixed in the Next Release...." [8|]

But anyway...
The Good
1) I've always been interested in this time-frame -- even going back to the old Avalon Hill "Guns Of August" wargame some 20+ years back. Definitely a genre that gets short-changed. Kudos for tackling a period of history that isn't as glamorous/sexy as WWII, etc.

2) I like the lean&mean startup time. No long waits for three or four so-and-so software entity's logos to come and go. Gets me into the game quick.

3) Has a good "beer&pretezels wargame" feel to it. I don't want to spend hours counting artillery shells, or making sure that Herr Quartermaster is feeding the horses. Just enough flavor to tweak things nicely, without delving into 'War In The Pacific'-esqe rifle counting minutiae.

The Bad
1) The Manual? Ugh. While I've seen the posts here that (for example) explain what the heck is listed on each unit, it just seems to me that some independent reviewing would have ironed out a lot of the questions/FAQs/clarifications that folks have asked so far. A very quick 2-3 turn Walk-Thru would do wonders here (Tks for your posts Lava et al!)

In addition, "see The Forum for further info" doesn't help folks who don't have access to the Internet at all times (airplane?).

And BTW, I have the latest update installed. Where the heck are the release notes (or updated manual) that I've seen referenced here in The Forums?

2) I have no qualms what-so-ever with the hex structure -- I grew up on Avalon Hill/SPI/Victory wargames, so I find it completely natural and nicely familiar.

But..., even long-in-the-tooth computer wargames (such as The Operational Art of War) at least have the ability to smoothly scroll the map. Using the cursor keys? Sorry, that's a work-around, not a feature. It's the 21st century, and we have an interface reminding me of some of the wonky games I played on my dad's Apple II+ in 1984? In my mind, the only time you should absolutely need to touch the keyboard for wargames such as this is for entering a name of a Saved Game file.

And why can't the game be played full-screen? The Introduction screen goes full screen, but the game doesn't? (Normally I'd think it's be the other way around.)

The mini-map? Other folks have touched on this better than I. But it does seem to be either under-utilized -- especially when it's taking up valuable screen real estate.

And is it just me, or is their no functionality to using a Mouse Wheel, or right-clicking on an unit? Again, I know it's not fair to compare one game with another. But The Operational Art of Warfare (some, what? 8 years old now?) used both of these functions to good effect. Even just some eye-candy would be better than nothing here, me'thinks.

The Ugly
1)I was able to find bug reports for folks having Saved Game/Password issues with PBEM and Hot Seat. But I'm having issues with trying to access a Saved Game from just a generic Solo game (1916 scenario, featuring my 'Burning the candle at both ends' Dual Front Central Power offense). Intro screen comes up, I select Load Saved Game. Browse window appears, I selected my saved game, and then get presented with a somewhat rugged looking window, with the word "Assault" in big bold letters, a password block, and a Continue button. I didn't get a prompt to enter a password when I saved it, so why ask me for a password now? I trid some obvious entries (blank, Return key, "assault", "trench", etc), no joy. Even worse, I can't get past this window, or even close it without having to go to my Task Manager and manually kill the process. Maybe there's an issue with the name I saved the game as ("GAO_burning the candle at both .SGW"), but have not experimented enough with this yet.

Overall?
I've been a big fan of Matrix Games' lineup for quite a while. And have never been disappointed in the past. But while there is definately some very nice things with this game, and I look forward to future patches..., in it's current state it's very much a Diamond In The Rough.

Cheers,
//TB

[Alan_Bernardo]

I don't know, everything you've commented upon has to do with the way the game looks and the UI.  While that's fine, I'd rather have a game that is fun and plays well than a game that is able to play at 1600x1200 resolution. 
 
The scrolling is fine to me, and I've never had problems loading saved games in solo. 
 
If you are looking for eye-candy, you're not going to find it in GoA.  Now if you want a fun game that is true to its name, then you will find it in GoA.
 
 
Alan

[06 Maestro]

He does have a point of this game seeming to have been "rushed" out the door. It is clear that there was a need for more play testing time. I wonder if there was a shortage of volunteers to help in this regard.

The 1st patch came out fairly quick fixing the most glaring problems-proof of Hunters' dedication to his product. Although there is more that can be done to improve the game, it is quite playable, and enjoyable in its current form.

In the meantime; the wish list continues to grow.

[Alan_Bernardo]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

He does have a point of this game seeming to have been "rushed" out the door. It is clear that there was a need for more play testing time. I wonder if there was a shortage of volunteers to help in this regard.

The 1st patch came out fairly quick fixing the most glaring problems-proof of Hunters' dedication to his product. Although there is more that can be done to improve the game, it is quite playable, and enjoyable in its current form.

In the meantime; the wish list continues to grow.

I wonder what game users think isn't rushed? How a game, in developement for years, is rushed, I don't know. Besides fixing gameplay issues-- like some kind of incorrect calculation-- which really sometimes can only be squashed once a game is released to the public, what is rushed? A game's UI is usually what it is, fixed once it is determined. The original poster's sense of GoA being rushed is based on his own UI preferences. To me the game, though at times counter-intuitive, does not feel rushed. Issues of intuition are based on the developer's philosophy, and could differ wildly from others'.

The only way, it appears to me, to change a game's philosophy (or cultural background) is to develop your own game.


Alan

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

He does have a point of this game seeming to have been "rushed" out the door. It is clear that there was a need for more play testing time. I wonder if there was a shortage of volunteers to help in this regard.

Yes there was - there were a handful of active testers. there was an open invite stickied in this forum for testers for years.

People would post on this forum about wanting it out ASAP, would swoon over screnshots and titbits, etc....and then do nothing about helping out despite the fact they would get the game early and free and have a hand in developing it.

The "community's" attitude was pathetic.[>:][>:]

[2gaulle]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work



The "community's" attitude was pathetic.[>:][>:]

not really. don't know if you notice but all critics post come from new users.

personally I prefer less look but more deeper historical game

[SMK-at-work]

I'm not talking about new critics - I'm talking about the people who were on this board when the game was in Beta for over a year and who didn't bother to volunteer to help test it.

[bis9170]

Thanks all for the comments -- and for not putting the hammer down on an obvious newbie to these Forums! [:)]

Despite my initial reservations, I'm still very enthusiastic that many of the bugs/feature requests for GOA will get ironed out in short order. In other words, I'm definately not in the same boat as jimmy_wishbone and his burning desire to get his money back! [&:]

But that having been said, I still think that while the UI is usable, it is just not very intuitive. An example:

Say you're a real general, bent over a real table, looking at a real map, examining your troops and the enemy's troops laid out in a very specific sector of the front. Want to see other sectors? Other fronts? You shift your eyes to the left or to the right, up, or down, yes?

IMO, the same holds true for virtual computer maps. With your mouse sub'ing for your eyes, if you want to look the left, you guide your mouse the left, scrolling the map according. North, South, East, West, as needed. It is not very intuitive to look away from the screen to find and hit an arrow key, to abruptly shift the focus of the map as needed. Especially in a way that is "jumpy", not a smooth scroll as it would be if you were looking at a real map.

Folks can debate UI's until their blue in the face -- and I would love to have folks convince me that my expectations are invalid, too high, or (at the very least) flawed.

But while I think there's a great wargame here in the making, working on the basics of a smoother, more intuitive UI would do wonders to help folks jump in to appreciate it's many "under-the-hood" strengths.[8D]
Cheers,
//TB

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

He does have a point of this game seeming to have been "rushed" out the door. It is clear that there was a need for more play testing time. I wonder if there was a shortage of volunteers to help in this regard.

Yes there was - there were a handful of active testers. there was an open invite stickied in this forum for testers for years.

People would post on this forum about wanting it out ASAP, would swoon over screnshots and titbits, etc....and then do nothing about helping out despite the fact they would get the game early and free and have a hand in developing it.

The "community's" attitude was pathetic.[>:][>:]

A lack of play testers really looks like that was the problem. I know the game was not rushed, but there were a couple of significant bugs that would have been caught before release with even a couple more dedicated testers.

[ravinhood]

The reason some game players today find games like this cumbersome is they have become impatient and lazy gamers and don't want to have to read a manual. They all want demos and tutorials. Why back in my day it was unheard of to have a demo or tutorials. You bought the game, you read the manual and you played it like the manual told you it played. You didn't go well it's not like such n such and the interface is cumbersome cause I have to use my left hand, cause I have to use the keyboard, cause I have to move at all. lol They want the mouse to do everything for them (even I want that sometimes as well). If one button or wheel doesn't do anything on the mouse it was "rushed out the door" lol. Back in my day you did EVERYTHING with the keyboard from moving individual units to action features of the game(s). Then the joystick came along and then the mouse. It just amazes me the laziness in most gamers nowadays when it comes to electronic entertainment. They even want games where the AI does all the playing and they just watch. lol
 
I usually don't have an issue with the interface as long as it WORKS. I do expect if I press a button that the manual told me to press to get an option to work it should work. But, I don't expect every other game to be like every other game when it comes to interface. That's why we have manuals and that's why we LEARN HOW TO PLAY EACH AND EVERY GAME. Not expect it to be like TOAW 8 years ago.
 
Frank Hunter shouldn't have to make his interface like every other game or any other game. You either learn the interface or you just don't play it. Doesn't mean anything he did was rushed out the door. Just lazy impatient gamers gaming as usual....and complaining because the game doesn't meet up to their expectations that were never promised to begin with.

[bis9170]

Hmm, I guess if i wanted to play a game with a 1980's UI, I'd still be playing it, don't ya think?

You're right -- I guess I'm just too lazy. Silly me....
Cheers,
//TB 

[bis9170]

ORIGINAL: bis9170


The Ugly
1)I was able to find bug reports for folks having Saved Game/Password issues with PBEM and Hot Seat. But I'm having issues with trying to access a Saved Game from just a generic Solo game (1916 scenario, featuring my 'Burning the candle at both ends' Dual Front Central Power offense). Intro screen comes up, I select Load Saved Game. Browse window appears, I selected my saved game, and then get presented with a somewhat rugged looking window, with the word "Assault" in big bold letters, a password block, and a Continue button. I didn't get a prompt to enter a password when I saved it, so why ask me for a password now? I trid some obvious entries (blank, Return key, "assault", "trench", etc), no joy. Even worse, I can't get past this window, or even close it without having to go to my Task Manager and manually kill the process. Maybe there's an issue with the name I saved the game as ("GAO_burning the candle at both .SGW"), but have not experimented enough with this yet.

SOLVED(?)
Turns out that there was 27 character limit to the name of the SGW file. I've no idea why entering a 28-character or more name for the Saved Game file would prompt the program to ask for a password....

(Oh, and not surprisingly, my Dual Front CP offense failed miserably! [:)] )
Cheers,
//TB

[TheBlackhorse]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro


A lack of play testers really looks like that was the problem. I know the game was not rushed, but there were a couple of significant bugs that would have been caught before release with even a couple more dedicated testers.

Out of curiosity, what were/are those bugs to which you refer?

I ask because it makes a difference whether one is refering to an actual bug or a conscientious design decision.

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: bis9170

Hmm, I guess if i wanted to play a game with a 1980's UI, I'd still be playing it, don't ya think?

Probably...but I have no idea how this relates to this 21st Century game with this 21st century UI...having been designed entirly in this century AFAIK.

If you didn't playtest it then you had no idea what the UI was and wouldn't know whether it was good or bad. If you playtested it and didn't like it then you could have had some input.

You're right -- I guess I'm just too lazy. Silly me....

I'll take your word as being absolutely correct on both counts.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: bis9170
And BTW, I have the latest update installed. Where the heck are the release notes (or updated manual) that I've seen referenced here in The Forums?

FYI, when you installed the update, the last screen had a "View Readme" button. There is also a Readme link in the program group for Guns of August that includes a FAQ and the latest list of changes.

Regards,

- Erik

[bis9170]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: bis9170
Hmm, I guess if i wanted to play a game with a 1980's UI, I'd still be playing it, don't ya think?

Probably...but I have no idea how this relates to this 21st Century game with this 21st century UI...having been designed entirly in this century AFAIK.

Semantics. It's not a question of when the game was designed, but the era that the UI emulates.

If you didn't playtest it then you had no idea what the UI was and wouldn't know whether it was good or bad. If you playtested it and didn't like it then you could have had some input.

Ah. So the only opinions that really matter in this entire Forum are from those scant few folks who playtested the game way back when, is that correct? After that, it's simply a matter of telling folks offering up constructive criticism and ways to improve the already excellent game -- who didn't even hear about the game-in-progress (yet alone have a chance to volunteer to playtest it) -- to stop whining and suck it up?

Classy. No wonder "...The "community's" attitude was pathetic." [>:] [>:]
Cheers,
//TB

[bis9170]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: bis9170
And BTW, I have the latest update installed. Where the heck are the release notes (or updated manual) that I've seen referenced here in The Forums?

FYI, when you installed the update, the last screen had a "View Readme" button. There is also a Readme link in the program group for Guns of August that includes a FAQ and the latest list of changes.

Regards,

- Erik

Thanks Erik. Yep, found it. [8D]
Cheers,
//TB

[SMK-at-work]

Ah. So the only opinions that really matter in this entire Forum are from those scant few folks who playtested the game way back when, is that correct?

where did I or anyoen else say that?

Playtesting finished about 4 months ago IIRC - so "way back when" wasn't very long ago at all.

what I find rich is people who had an opportunity to contribute - who were actually INVITED to contribute - complaining about stuff now.

Plenty of people's opinions are valid - people new to the game give a great insight.  But I have little time for people who had the opportunity couldn't be bothered getting off their behinds to help make it better and then go all cry baby because they don't like the result.

After that, it's simply a matter of telling folks offering up constructive criticism and ways to improve the already excellent game -- who didn't even hear about the game-in-progress (yet alone have a chance to volunteer to playtest it) -- to stop whining and suck it up?

If you weren't aware of the game and didn't have a chance to playtest it then how do my comments about people who did have the opportunity relate to you?[&:][&:]

I haven't told you to stop whinign about your points of constructive criticism - only about your labelling the UI as "1980's" (as if there weren't UI's in the 80's that arent' still perfectly valid....)[8|]  then you implied that you were too lazy to bother playtesting - sorry for taking you at your word. 

If I've got the wrong end of the stick then I apologise for doing so....

[blockquote]

:


Probably...but I have no idea how this relates to this 21st Century game with this 21st century UI...having been designed entirly in this century AFAIK.[/blockquote]
Semantics. It's not a question of when the game was designed, but the era that the UI emulates.

 
Ahh....labelling the other pov as "semantics"...the last riposte of the bankrupt debater!

The UI doesn't "emulate" anything - the GAME emulates WW2...the UI works as a function of the game. 

[jchastain]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

The reason some game players today find games like this cumbersome is they have become impatient and lazy gamers and don't want to have to read a manual. They all want demos and tutorials. Why back in my day it was unheard of to have a demo or tutorials. You bought the game, you read the manual and you played it like the manual told you it played. You didn't go well it's not like such n such and the interface is cumbersome cause I have to use my left hand, cause I have to use the keyboard, cause I have to move at all. lol They want the mouse to do everything for them (even I want that sometimes as well). If one button or wheel doesn't do anything on the mouse it was "rushed out the door" lol. Back in my day you did EVERYTHING with the keyboard from moving individual units to action features of the game(s). Then the joystick came along and then the mouse. It just amazes me the laziness in most gamers nowadays when it comes to electronic entertainment. They even want games where the AI does all the playing and they just watch. lol

I usually don't have an issue with the interface as long as it WORKS. I do expect if I press a button that the manual told me to press to get an option to work it should work. But, I don't expect every other game to be like every other game when it comes to interface. That's why we have manuals and that's why we LEARN HOW TO PLAY EACH AND EVERY GAME. Not expect it to be like TOAW 8 years ago.

Frank Hunter shouldn't have to make his interface like every other game or any other game. You either learn the interface or you just don't play it. Doesn't mean anything he did was rushed out the door. Just lazy impatient gamers gaming as usual....and complaining because the game doesn't meet up to their expectations that were never promised to begin with.

I agree that a developer can produce whatever interface he or she wishes, but I do not believe gamers should be called lazy for expecting the interface to be intuitive. In my mind, that would be like calling drivers lazy for expecting the accelerator to be the pedal on the right and the brake to be the pedal on the left rather than sitting down and reading the manual prior to a test drive in order to determine how to make the car go and stop. Reading a manual is a great way to understand the finer distinctions within a game and might be required for being an optimal player. But the best designed games, in my opinion, are the ones that you can sit down and play without reading the manual and where you can get the game pieces to do what you want without having to struggle with the interface.

[SMK-at-work]

what is there that could be more intuitive about this game of WW1?  If you click on a corps in the strategy or movement phases the possible actions are highlighted, if you click on a HQ ditto, as well as in the activation phase.  When you spend production points you get a visual readout of what they are bing turned into...so many naval points, so many equipment points, artillery points, etc.
 
Just what is it that is not intuitive???[&:]
 
When i first started playing this game there was no manual at all.....yet I coped.....and Frank wasn't online nearly as often as he is now!!