Oh yes easily against A6M5 or A6M2's my Hellcats will wipe the floor with em and it will be 6 hexes from Wake not from the Marianas !!!.
A6 series fighters are easy meat for US fighters its the mass of LB Fighters I cannot win against
I just need to keep him honest to allow my CVE's to get out of dodge
Andy Mac ...... Revenge of the Allies
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Akita Burns
OK guys it will be a few days before Pauk gets a turn back I am going to stop whinging and get on with the game - its really not very nice to complain when you are in such a fascinating war..
I am not asking for a change in HR's at this point as it would be unfair on Pauk.
After we get through this I will be entering negotiations - historically 10 Sqns of Marine Corsairs served on USN ships - Pauk and I had a deal with regard to use of these 10 Sqns AFTER Kamis became active - I will be seeking acceleration of this deployment but NOT until after we finish the mariana campaign one way or the other.
What I need to do is restock my carriers and then go back in hard with just the fleet carriers.
Andy
I am not asking for a change in HR's at this point as it would be unfair on Pauk.
After we get through this I will be entering negotiations - historically 10 Sqns of Marine Corsairs served on USN ships - Pauk and I had a deal with regard to use of these 10 Sqns AFTER Kamis became active - I will be seeking acceleration of this deployment but NOT until after we finish the mariana campaign one way or the other.
What I need to do is restock my carriers and then go back in hard with just the fleet carriers.
Andy
RE: Akita Burns
This sounds very fair, The US would legitimately have felt they needed to adjust their Carrier Air Force after such a beating.
Adieu Ô Dieu odieux... signé Adam
RE: Akita Burns
Lets see where we end up. I will have a force of 5 Fleet Carriers and 3 Light Carriers at Wake will full fighter Sqns in 24 hours.
Escort Carriers are retreating to Wake via the long route I don't expect pauk to pursue.
The key is to re organise the fleet I have an idea its not cunning.
OK the plan I have 8 Operational Battleships and still plenty of Destroyers.
So the plan replenish the carriers with fighters and strike aircraft. Form 4 surface TF's of Heavy and Light surface vessels and send them in hard against the Japanese under cover of the carriers...
Andy
Escort Carriers are retreating to Wake via the long route I don't expect pauk to pursue.
The key is to re organise the fleet I have an idea its not cunning.
OK the plan I have 8 Operational Battleships and still plenty of Destroyers.
So the plan replenish the carriers with fighters and strike aircraft. Form 4 surface TF's of Heavy and Light surface vessels and send them in hard against the Japanese under cover of the carriers...
Andy
-
Snowman999
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:08 pm
RE: Akita Burns
ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
The key is to re organise the fleet I have an idea its not cunning.
OK the plan I have 8 Operational Battleships and still plenty of Destroyers.
So the plan replenish the carriers with fighters and strike aircraft. Form 4 surface TF's of Heavy and Light surface vessels and send them in hard against the Japanese under cover of the carriers...
Andy
Andy, I've been following this AAR (both sides) for months and haven't added a comment. I'm not experienced at PBEM, but I've played three complete AI campaigns to completion as the Allies. Recognizing how different PBEM is and how amazing your opponent, I still have to ask . . . where are your submarines!?
I relaize subs are semi-porked in the game (one ship one attack per day while in a convoy!!!???) but by mid-1944 USN subs are excellent hunters and the fish finally work. I haven't counted how many you've lost, but whatever is left there is no more target-rich enviro for them this month than west and northwest of Saipan. Even if they don't hit anything, every IJN DD hunting them is leaving your AKs alone.
Someone commented in the forum recently that you gave up on subs as just VP "gifts" to the opposition, but the routines were adjusted several patches ago and I find them useful, even if ahistoric.
The game, possibly due to GG's long history of designing aircraft-centric games, hyper-models air combat and greatly overstates the effectiveness of anti-naval LBA. But the three things that won the war from the US perspective were carrier air, the USMC's evolution of amphib ops, and, most of all , the Silent Service. Bleed him!
(Yes, I have a set of gold dolphins on the shelf across the room. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong.[:)])
Steve
Snowman999
RE: Akita Burns
Hi yes I have about 40 subs in Tinian waters and approaches but they are doing limited good.
OK today I only got 0:1 so its game over on Tinian.
OK a few points for everyone thank you for the email questions but its easier to answer them on the forum en masse so to speak.
If I miss anyones questions apologies
1. Why did you attack Tinian and not another island in the Marianas.
All other islands are mountainous so Tinian has a x 4 AV multiple for forts, Saipan, Guam or Pagan would have x 12 because forts and mountains are mutiplactive. i.e. attacking the Marianas for the allies is a no choice option.
2. Why did you not bomb before attacking.
Because it is not possible in WITP to interdict land reinforcements if the Japanese player is willing to take the losses he can put 2 or 3 Divs ashore in short order either by transport aircraft or massed AK invasion - Pauk did that to me at Gasmata so he knows the moves and PZB has completed it many times another 1,000 AV x 4 = no matter what the allies bring its not possible.
3. Why did you not sweep the mines before landing ?
Over 40 MSWs were destroyed int he first hour of the fight despite having DD and BB support int he same TF.
4. Why did you give up on SWPAC
SWPAC is a valid attack route BUT with every base having lvl 9 forts and the Japanese able to reinforce and it being malaria it is a VERY tough attack route. Remember Noemfoor against PZB a single Bde can stop 2 - 3 Divs of allied Troops for a long time. Forts are just to strong in jungle and Malaria.
5. Why not attack Marcus
Perhaps I should have valid question
6. Why not attack HI
Because although I would have won it would have left a bad taste in the mouth.
OK what now - honest answer I dont know
Andy
OK today I only got 0:1 so its game over on Tinian.
OK a few points for everyone thank you for the email questions but its easier to answer them on the forum en masse so to speak.
If I miss anyones questions apologies
1. Why did you attack Tinian and not another island in the Marianas.
All other islands are mountainous so Tinian has a x 4 AV multiple for forts, Saipan, Guam or Pagan would have x 12 because forts and mountains are mutiplactive. i.e. attacking the Marianas for the allies is a no choice option.
2. Why did you not bomb before attacking.
Because it is not possible in WITP to interdict land reinforcements if the Japanese player is willing to take the losses he can put 2 or 3 Divs ashore in short order either by transport aircraft or massed AK invasion - Pauk did that to me at Gasmata so he knows the moves and PZB has completed it many times another 1,000 AV x 4 = no matter what the allies bring its not possible.
3. Why did you not sweep the mines before landing ?
Over 40 MSWs were destroyed int he first hour of the fight despite having DD and BB support int he same TF.
4. Why did you give up on SWPAC
SWPAC is a valid attack route BUT with every base having lvl 9 forts and the Japanese able to reinforce and it being malaria it is a VERY tough attack route. Remember Noemfoor against PZB a single Bde can stop 2 - 3 Divs of allied Troops for a long time. Forts are just to strong in jungle and Malaria.
5. Why not attack Marcus
Perhaps I should have valid question
6. Why not attack HI
Because although I would have won it would have left a bad taste in the mouth.
OK what now - honest answer I dont know
Andy
RE: Akita Burns
I feel I now have no choice its all or nothing.
my carriers are moving extremely slowly despite being undamaged but will all be back at Wake tomorrow within the next 3 days the entire fleet will sail to death or glory I cannot leave 300,000 men on Tinian every ship I can muster is going in - I MUST secure naval superiority over the Marianas so the orders are given.
All carriers will be setting sail after they have fueled the crippled Hornet will be going in with the fleet - in total 6 Fleet, 3 Light and about 25 Escort Carriers covered by 8 BB's and every destroyer I can find.
This is it death or glory....
my carriers are moving extremely slowly despite being undamaged but will all be back at Wake tomorrow within the next 3 days the entire fleet will sail to death or glory I cannot leave 300,000 men on Tinian every ship I can muster is going in - I MUST secure naval superiority over the Marianas so the orders are given.
All carriers will be setting sail after they have fueled the crippled Hornet will be going in with the fleet - in total 6 Fleet, 3 Light and about 25 Escort Carriers covered by 8 BB's and every destroyer I can find.
This is it death or glory....
RE: Akita Burns
OK the plan in more detail its a little loose at present.....
5 Operational Fleet Carriers will form the core of the fleet each will have 70 fighters (either Corsairs or Hellcats I have 3 Corsair Sqns) 350 Fighters
3 Light Carriers each with 20 Hellcats - 60 Fighters
Hornet will operate a 100% stike mix of Helldivers and TBM's as she is vulnerable.
I have enough figthters to manage to set up that force mix. In addition I have 2 sqns of marine F6F NF's which will serve on board 2 of the CVE's so another 48 Fighters
Any other Hellcats will be used to replace Wildcats on undamaged CVE's.
I will form 5 Carrier TF's and 1 Replenishment TF
Each combat TF will have 1 Fleet CV and 2 - 3 Light/Escort Carriers.
This is an unbalanced fleet but this really is all or nothing !!!
5 Operational Fleet Carriers will form the core of the fleet each will have 70 fighters (either Corsairs or Hellcats I have 3 Corsair Sqns) 350 Fighters
3 Light Carriers each with 20 Hellcats - 60 Fighters
Hornet will operate a 100% stike mix of Helldivers and TBM's as she is vulnerable.
I have enough figthters to manage to set up that force mix. In addition I have 2 sqns of marine F6F NF's which will serve on board 2 of the CVE's so another 48 Fighters
Any other Hellcats will be used to replace Wildcats on undamaged CVE's.
I will form 5 Carrier TF's and 1 Replenishment TF
Each combat TF will have 1 Fleet CV and 2 - 3 Light/Escort Carriers.
This is an unbalanced fleet but this really is all or nothing !!!
RE: Akita Burns
OK last night I managed to perform a little bit of surgery on my TF's
CVE's will take two days to arrive at Wake and I am going to wait for them.
5 Fresh CVE's from West Coast will bring me fully up to strength with where I was a few days ago.
All 5 CV's will have 40 F6F's and 36 F4U's or 80 F6F's
3 CVL's will have 21 F6F's and 9 TBM's
Hornet will have 90 Helldivers.
I should have about 20 CVE's total so about capacity for 600 aircraft.
3 will operate F6F NF's total of 72.
By stripping Saratoga of Hellcats and ditching the replenishment groups I should be able to allocate about another 150 to the CVE's
All other berths will be filled with strike aircraft.
In total I will have 108 F4U's, 72 F6F NF's and about 450 F6F's I am not commiting any Wildcats with the fleet I cannot afford the pilot losses.
The only reason I can do this is the 200 I did not commit in the first phase.
Missispi sailed from Pearl to join the fleet at Wake.
So what is the plan well its simple SEEK out and DESTROY KB.
I cannot even attempt to fight Jap LBA while KB is a threat I am therefore going to hunt KB down and destroy it if it refuses to come and fight then I will use massed bombardment TF's on Tinian until it does.
My replenishment groups are in reasonable shape still so fuel and ammo are not an issue.
This is it guys no messing straight down the middle cannons to the left cannons to the right etc etc
In two days the fleet sails and it WILL rescue the allied armies on Tinian whatever the cost.
CVE's will take two days to arrive at Wake and I am going to wait for them.
5 Fresh CVE's from West Coast will bring me fully up to strength with where I was a few days ago.
All 5 CV's will have 40 F6F's and 36 F4U's or 80 F6F's
3 CVL's will have 21 F6F's and 9 TBM's
Hornet will have 90 Helldivers.
I should have about 20 CVE's total so about capacity for 600 aircraft.
3 will operate F6F NF's total of 72.
By stripping Saratoga of Hellcats and ditching the replenishment groups I should be able to allocate about another 150 to the CVE's
All other berths will be filled with strike aircraft.
In total I will have 108 F4U's, 72 F6F NF's and about 450 F6F's I am not commiting any Wildcats with the fleet I cannot afford the pilot losses.
The only reason I can do this is the 200 I did not commit in the first phase.
Missispi sailed from Pearl to join the fleet at Wake.
So what is the plan well its simple SEEK out and DESTROY KB.
I cannot even attempt to fight Jap LBA while KB is a threat I am therefore going to hunt KB down and destroy it if it refuses to come and fight then I will use massed bombardment TF's on Tinian until it does.
My replenishment groups are in reasonable shape still so fuel and ammo are not an issue.
This is it guys no messing straight down the middle cannons to the left cannons to the right etc etc
In two days the fleet sails and it WILL rescue the allied armies on Tinian whatever the cost.
RE: Akita Burns
Oh and when the amphibs arrive at Pearl 1st Australian Corps will be loading to reinforce Tinian - I am now 'pot committed' to the operation so its win or bust.....
RE: Akita Burns
Andy,
I've got to say that while you do have a point about removing the restriction on Corsair basing on CVEs etc ( and in my games I don't limit Allied Corsair basing for precisely the PDU-related reasons you've given here ) I must take issue with some of your other reasoning.
In this game you simply went too deep with insufficient preparation and you paid the price for it. What do I mean by insufficient preparation?
1. Japanese Army fighters have caused you most of your problems here... Proper preparation for this invasion would have involved running down the plan and pilot pools through concentrated British and US Army fighter offensives around Java and Malaysia. You COULD have written down his Army fighter numbers in other theatres before committing here.
2. KB is largely intact. I don't think you had any business going this deep while KB was available to bolster the Japanese Army fighters. If you look at what happened the presence of KB turned what was a salvageable situation vs IJA fighters into an absolute slaughter.
3. Tinian wasn't bombed into the stone age. It doesn't matter how many men he has there if you have bombed the supplies at Tinian into the stone age, bombe the fields on the two neighbouring islands into uselesness and run the occasional CV TF sweep around Tinian etc over the past fortnight. At that point in time more Japanese reinforcements just results in more strain on his supplies.
The IJA fighters weren't the thing which broke your back. The combination of IJA fighters and KB broke your back. You need to either go and hunt KB down when it is in port ( or lure it into a decisive battle on favourable terms ) OR ( and IMO more realistically and dependably ) you need to step up your aerial operations over Malaysia, Java etc in order to write down the IJA fighter strength. Then, in two months time when you make your next "great leap forward" you can make it safe in the knowledge that:
1. Yes KB will still be available to contest things and
2. Yes land-based torpedo bombers will abound but
3. Those IJA fighter reserves will be less than your carrier air reserves. This is the key. You are fighting two major reserve pools with your smallest reserve pool ( US Navy pilots and planes ). That's always going to be a losing proposition. Switch it so that by the time you go in the IJA fighter reserve is pretty much gone and you can handle KB with ease.
Think about it, if you had been able to wipe out the IJA fighters in the first day AND they couldn't be replenished by day two wouldn't things have been very different?
I think you are focussed on winning the one massive fight "on the day" and not focussed enough on giving the IJA pilot pool and fighter reserves a death of a thousand cuts over Malaysia and the DEI such that by the time your CVs heave into view 1 the IJA just doesn't have the pockets to attrit them.
This is meant to be constructive criticism as I do think you've played a very good game BUT I also believe a bit of patience and more attention given to shaping the battlefield in the weeks and months leading up to the battle could have paid dividends.
P.s. Obviously at this stage you just need to keep pouring reinforcements in, sweeping with your CVs when you can, and eventually Tinian will fall to your forces. Every drop in fort level reduces enemy resistance by about 20% so unless he is bringing in 20% more forces every day he can't win... and he isn't able to bring in that level of extra forces per day. It will fall and Tinian will be yours but please do consider actually properly preparing your next invasion target with LBA and CV sweeps etc so that by the time you land the garrison is in pieces and not, as in the case with Tinian, in top condition with loads of supplies.
I've got to say that while you do have a point about removing the restriction on Corsair basing on CVEs etc ( and in my games I don't limit Allied Corsair basing for precisely the PDU-related reasons you've given here ) I must take issue with some of your other reasoning.
In this game you simply went too deep with insufficient preparation and you paid the price for it. What do I mean by insufficient preparation?
1. Japanese Army fighters have caused you most of your problems here... Proper preparation for this invasion would have involved running down the plan and pilot pools through concentrated British and US Army fighter offensives around Java and Malaysia. You COULD have written down his Army fighter numbers in other theatres before committing here.
2. KB is largely intact. I don't think you had any business going this deep while KB was available to bolster the Japanese Army fighters. If you look at what happened the presence of KB turned what was a salvageable situation vs IJA fighters into an absolute slaughter.
3. Tinian wasn't bombed into the stone age. It doesn't matter how many men he has there if you have bombed the supplies at Tinian into the stone age, bombe the fields on the two neighbouring islands into uselesness and run the occasional CV TF sweep around Tinian etc over the past fortnight. At that point in time more Japanese reinforcements just results in more strain on his supplies.
The IJA fighters weren't the thing which broke your back. The combination of IJA fighters and KB broke your back. You need to either go and hunt KB down when it is in port ( or lure it into a decisive battle on favourable terms ) OR ( and IMO more realistically and dependably ) you need to step up your aerial operations over Malaysia, Java etc in order to write down the IJA fighter strength. Then, in two months time when you make your next "great leap forward" you can make it safe in the knowledge that:
1. Yes KB will still be available to contest things and
2. Yes land-based torpedo bombers will abound but
3. Those IJA fighter reserves will be less than your carrier air reserves. This is the key. You are fighting two major reserve pools with your smallest reserve pool ( US Navy pilots and planes ). That's always going to be a losing proposition. Switch it so that by the time you go in the IJA fighter reserve is pretty much gone and you can handle KB with ease.
Think about it, if you had been able to wipe out the IJA fighters in the first day AND they couldn't be replenished by day two wouldn't things have been very different?
I think you are focussed on winning the one massive fight "on the day" and not focussed enough on giving the IJA pilot pool and fighter reserves a death of a thousand cuts over Malaysia and the DEI such that by the time your CVs heave into view 1 the IJA just doesn't have the pockets to attrit them.
This is meant to be constructive criticism as I do think you've played a very good game BUT I also believe a bit of patience and more attention given to shaping the battlefield in the weeks and months leading up to the battle could have paid dividends.
P.s. Obviously at this stage you just need to keep pouring reinforcements in, sweeping with your CVs when you can, and eventually Tinian will fall to your forces. Every drop in fort level reduces enemy resistance by about 20% so unless he is bringing in 20% more forces every day he can't win... and he isn't able to bring in that level of extra forces per day. It will fall and Tinian will be yours but please do consider actually properly preparing your next invasion target with LBA and CV sweeps etc so that by the time you land the garrison is in pieces and not, as in the case with Tinian, in top condition with loads of supplies.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Akita Burns
As it happens I dont believe I have played well in this instance but a few comments.
1. I agree and have been doing this I have kiiled thousands of Japanese Pilots over Singapore and Palembang but his reserves are apparently far deeper than I could have possibly imagined.
2. I disagree on this actually KB is of limited danger A6 series fighters cannot stand up to allied carriers Pauk played very well keeping them back to pick off my cripples (KB pilots were wiped out 3 months ago so his pilot quality cannot be great)
3. I disagree on this one not as to how it should be but as to how it is - my experience in other games is that it is impossible to bomb them into stone age if out of land based fighter range - if I bomb Tinian then he knows where I am going and the level 9 forts will allow even 1 division to stop me cold with bases that close it is very hard to cut off a base totally.
Re the fighter pool issue unfortuantely you are correct China is basically a Japanese pilot trainign ground now and Pauk is being very carefull not to give me a chance to stop him
Almost all my P38's are in Sumatra trying to attrit his pilots but the fact is he can train em in china faster than I can kill them. Pauk no longer contests Palemabg or Singapore and because of my ealrier over reaching in and around VP my army is de facto defeated in detail.
As I said I did not play well in last few months
I have 5 more Divisions between those arriving on the West Coast and the Aussie 1st Corps at pearl they will take about 5 weeks to go in.
I am not sure of my plan I will have a strong carrier fleet when I return to the Marianas but I am tempted to take lots of AO's and force KB to come out and fight me after KB is eliminated other options will present themselves.
p.s. had that betty not spotted my fleet when I was over 800 miles away Tinian would have fallen all I needed was two more days and nothing he could have done would have stopped me - even so I landed 8,000 AV and 300,000 men and 1,500 tanks to take on less than 60,000 men and failed to take the island or secure the AF.......
1. I agree and have been doing this I have kiiled thousands of Japanese Pilots over Singapore and Palembang but his reserves are apparently far deeper than I could have possibly imagined.
2. I disagree on this actually KB is of limited danger A6 series fighters cannot stand up to allied carriers Pauk played very well keeping them back to pick off my cripples (KB pilots were wiped out 3 months ago so his pilot quality cannot be great)
3. I disagree on this one not as to how it should be but as to how it is - my experience in other games is that it is impossible to bomb them into stone age if out of land based fighter range - if I bomb Tinian then he knows where I am going and the level 9 forts will allow even 1 division to stop me cold with bases that close it is very hard to cut off a base totally.
Re the fighter pool issue unfortuantely you are correct China is basically a Japanese pilot trainign ground now and Pauk is being very carefull not to give me a chance to stop him
Almost all my P38's are in Sumatra trying to attrit his pilots but the fact is he can train em in china faster than I can kill them. Pauk no longer contests Palemabg or Singapore and because of my ealrier over reaching in and around VP my army is de facto defeated in detail.
As I said I did not play well in last few months
I have 5 more Divisions between those arriving on the West Coast and the Aussie 1st Corps at pearl they will take about 5 weeks to go in.
I am not sure of my plan I will have a strong carrier fleet when I return to the Marianas but I am tempted to take lots of AO's and force KB to come out and fight me after KB is eliminated other options will present themselves.
p.s. had that betty not spotted my fleet when I was over 800 miles away Tinian would have fallen all I needed was two more days and nothing he could have done would have stopped me - even so I landed 8,000 AV and 300,000 men and 1,500 tanks to take on less than 60,000 men and failed to take the island or secure the AF.......
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Andy,
I've got to say that while you do have a point about removing the restriction on Corsair basing on CVEs etc ( and in my games I don't limit Allied Corsair basing for precisely the PDU-related reasons you've given here ) I must take issue with some of your other reasoning.
In this game you simply went too deep with insufficient preparation and you paid the price for it. What do I mean by insufficient preparation?
1. Japanese Army fighters have caused you most of your problems here... Proper preparation for this invasion would have involved running down the plan and pilot pools through concentrated British and US Army fighter offensives around Java and Malaysia. You COULD have written down his Army fighter numbers in other theatres before committing here.
2. KB is largely intact. I don't think you had any business going this deep while KB was available to bolster the Japanese Army fighters. If you look at what happened the presence of KB turned what was a salvageable situation vs IJA fighters into an absolute slaughter.
3. Tinian wasn't bombed into the stone age. It doesn't matter how many men he has there if you have bombed the supplies at Tinian into the stone age, bombe the fields on the two neighbouring islands into uselesness and run the occasional CV TF sweep around Tinian etc over the past fortnight. At that point in time more Japanese reinforcements just results in more strain on his supplies.
The IJA fighters weren't the thing which broke your back. The combination of IJA fighters and KB broke your back. You need to either go and hunt KB down when it is in port ( or lure it into a decisive battle on favourable terms ) OR ( and IMO more realistically and dependably ) you need to step up your aerial operations over Malaysia, Java etc in order to write down the IJA fighter strength. Then, in two months time when you make your next "great leap forward" you can make it safe in the knowledge that:
1. Yes KB will still be available to contest things and
2. Yes land-based torpedo bombers will abound but
3. Those IJA fighter reserves will be less than your carrier air reserves. This is the key. You are fighting two major reserve pools with your smallest reserve pool ( US Navy pilots and planes ). That's always going to be a losing proposition. Switch it so that by the time you go in the IJA fighter reserve is pretty much gone and you can handle KB with ease.
Think about it, if you had been able to wipe out the IJA fighters in the first day AND they couldn't be replenished by day two wouldn't things have been very different?
I think you are focussed on winning the one massive fight "on the day" and not focussed enough on giving the IJA pilot pool and fighter reserves a death of a thousand cuts over Malaysia and the DEI such that by the time your CVs heave into view 1 the IJA just doesn't have the pockets to attrit them.
This is meant to be constructive criticism as I do think you've played a very good game BUT I also believe a bit of patience and more attention given to shaping the battlefield in the weeks and months leading up to the battle could have paid dividends.
P.s. Obviously at this stage you just need to keep pouring reinforcements in, sweeping with your CVs when you can, and eventually Tinian will fall to your forces. Every drop in fort level reduces enemy resistance by about 20% so unless he is bringing in 20% more forces every day he can't win... and he isn't able to bring in that level of extra forces per day. It will fall and Tinian will be yours but please do consider actually properly preparing your next invasion target with LBA and CV sweeps etc so that by the time you land the garrison is in pieces and not, as in the case with Tinian, in top condition with loads of supplies.
RE: Akita Burns
ps tips always welcome even if they are a few home truths - the fact is I gambled on landing a sledgehammer but it turned out to be a childs wooden mallet
RE: Akita Burns
ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
ps tips always welcome even if they are a few home truths - the fact is I gambled on landing a sledgehammer but it turned out to be a childs wooden mallet
I don't know that it's quite over yet, is it? Given a few turns to recover disruption, do you think you can still attrit the forts?
Seems like the offensive isn't "over" until undisrupted ground troops can't knock a fort down. Once that happens, you're spinning, but until then you're grinding forward.
RE: Akita Burns
Hi Andy,
A couple of points in reply:
1. Aye, you've been killing them but, obviously he hasn't run out. I think this would argue for either delaying the invasion of Tinian or picking to invade another island which is more isolated and thus cannot be as easily reinforced by Pauk.
2. Well I think there's a difference between what I am saying "KB turned a moderate loss into an absolute disaster" and saying "KB's fighter power is amazing. Those A6Ms clear the skies." Just look back over the last few days and discount anything the A6Ms did and then ask yourself did those Judys and torpedo-bombers from the CVs massively increase my losses and turn a moderate defeat into something that is costing me over a hundred ships?
3. Well I think that the real point here is that it is impossible to bomb them into the stone age if they are within range of multiple supporting land bases ( e.g. Tinian ) but if you commit 400 bombers on a single day to any ISOLATED Japanese island ( more than 5 hexes or 6 hexes from the next Japanese base with a substantial airfield ) then that airfield is going to be closed and you can keep it closed. Better yet close it via a carrier strike and then keep it closed via LBA whilst rotating CV TFs fly LRCAP over the island to massacre the reinforcement flights. Do that for a fortnight and then invade.
Pauk is a fighter. If he isn't contesting something it is because it is too costly for him to contest. If he isn't fighting in the air over these areas it is ONLY because he feels his losses there are too heavy. He would only conclude his losses are too heavy if his reserves aren't actually limitless. It is a pity you are stalled around Malaysia as the best way to bring his IJA fighters into the air is to find something new they must defend. But, what you have said here shows that his pilot reserves aren't as bottomless as you might think.
I agree re: the Betty. On the other hand at this stage in the war in my opinion ( and yours can reasonably differ ) I think that you have such a weight of men and material that you shouldn't be planning operations which can go tits up if you are spotted earlier than you wish. I think that you need to be planning operations which will succeed even if you give the enemy your operational plan a fortnight before you go in. You DO have the material to achieve that but you are going too deep, attacking bases which aren't isolated ( either geographically or via military means) and which aren't absolutely sure things.
As to the ground war on Tinian - Well at this stage you MUST keep pouring it in as it is easier to resupply and reinforce to capture Tinian than it is to withdraw everything and rebuild it in a safe rear area base. It is going to cost you a lot of time and a whole load of ships but now that you committed to going so deep while the enemy remains relatively unattritted you have no choice but to pay the butcher's bill. With undisrupted troops you can bring the forts down. It might take a month but you should be able to do it even in spite of air-transported reinforcements so long as you can prevent any reinforcement convoys reaching Tinian. If he can get convoys through then he can bring several thousand AV in over the next month and you are well and truly screwed and will be looking at organising an evacuation and a 4 to 6 month halt in major offensive operations in-theatre.
Seriously though for your next operation pick a base which cannot be supported by multiple other bases within IJA fighter range, flatten the airfield with a massive, surprise bomber raid and then just keep it suppressed no matter what ( since he can't LRCAP from other islands your bomber losses will be low ). LRCAP the island with a few fighter squadrons from your carriers and then, when the time is right, land your troops. Without all those IJA fighters there to help the defenders your carriers will easily handle KB and keep the island from receiving reinforcement convoys or reinforcing air-transported troops.
It is damned exciting and good fun to see you invading Tinian but it isn't strategically viable and you'll win this game by doing strategically viable and cost-effective things, not by being racy and exciting.
A couple of points in reply:
1. Aye, you've been killing them but, obviously he hasn't run out. I think this would argue for either delaying the invasion of Tinian or picking to invade another island which is more isolated and thus cannot be as easily reinforced by Pauk.
2. Well I think there's a difference between what I am saying "KB turned a moderate loss into an absolute disaster" and saying "KB's fighter power is amazing. Those A6Ms clear the skies." Just look back over the last few days and discount anything the A6Ms did and then ask yourself did those Judys and torpedo-bombers from the CVs massively increase my losses and turn a moderate defeat into something that is costing me over a hundred ships?
3. Well I think that the real point here is that it is impossible to bomb them into the stone age if they are within range of multiple supporting land bases ( e.g. Tinian ) but if you commit 400 bombers on a single day to any ISOLATED Japanese island ( more than 5 hexes or 6 hexes from the next Japanese base with a substantial airfield ) then that airfield is going to be closed and you can keep it closed. Better yet close it via a carrier strike and then keep it closed via LBA whilst rotating CV TFs fly LRCAP over the island to massacre the reinforcement flights. Do that for a fortnight and then invade.
Pauk no longer contests Palemabg or Singapore
Pauk is a fighter. If he isn't contesting something it is because it is too costly for him to contest. If he isn't fighting in the air over these areas it is ONLY because he feels his losses there are too heavy. He would only conclude his losses are too heavy if his reserves aren't actually limitless. It is a pity you are stalled around Malaysia as the best way to bring his IJA fighters into the air is to find something new they must defend. But, what you have said here shows that his pilot reserves aren't as bottomless as you might think.
I agree re: the Betty. On the other hand at this stage in the war in my opinion ( and yours can reasonably differ ) I think that you have such a weight of men and material that you shouldn't be planning operations which can go tits up if you are spotted earlier than you wish. I think that you need to be planning operations which will succeed even if you give the enemy your operational plan a fortnight before you go in. You DO have the material to achieve that but you are going too deep, attacking bases which aren't isolated ( either geographically or via military means) and which aren't absolutely sure things.
As to the ground war on Tinian - Well at this stage you MUST keep pouring it in as it is easier to resupply and reinforce to capture Tinian than it is to withdraw everything and rebuild it in a safe rear area base. It is going to cost you a lot of time and a whole load of ships but now that you committed to going so deep while the enemy remains relatively unattritted you have no choice but to pay the butcher's bill. With undisrupted troops you can bring the forts down. It might take a month but you should be able to do it even in spite of air-transported reinforcements so long as you can prevent any reinforcement convoys reaching Tinian. If he can get convoys through then he can bring several thousand AV in over the next month and you are well and truly screwed and will be looking at organising an evacuation and a 4 to 6 month halt in major offensive operations in-theatre.
Seriously though for your next operation pick a base which cannot be supported by multiple other bases within IJA fighter range, flatten the airfield with a massive, surprise bomber raid and then just keep it suppressed no matter what ( since he can't LRCAP from other islands your bomber losses will be low ). LRCAP the island with a few fighter squadrons from your carriers and then, when the time is right, land your troops. Without all those IJA fighters there to help the defenders your carriers will easily handle KB and keep the island from receiving reinforcement convoys or reinforcing air-transported troops.
It is damned exciting and good fun to see you invading Tinian but it isn't strategically viable and you'll win this game by doing strategically viable and cost-effective things, not by being racy and exciting.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Akita Burns
1. Yes I got it wrong I should have went to Marcus and I obviously was wrong about his depth of fighter pilot reserves. Despite that I was confident I could take the island thats why I brought pretty much the whole Army.
2. Yup KB turned a retreat into a rout
3. Yes had I attacked an isolated base you are correct - I didnt and am paying the price
I actually wasnt worried about getting spotted I actually thought I had sufficient force to take the base quickly I under estimated the amount of losses my Hellcats would take and I also underestimated the fact that I would lose all my MSW's before they swept any mines.
I agree with you rightly or wrongly I am committed so everything has to go in and keep going in most of the LST's got away so they will retire on PH pick up 1st Aussies Corps and 11th Airborne Div and we will go in again.
All but 1 BG of Superforts are resting to build up numbers and the carriers will be sailing in 2 days.
Hornet slipped anchor yesterday as she is slow
I am not putting marine Corsairs on Carriers but will be discussing this issue with Pauk after this battle is over.
My initial plan did call for a surprise mass bombing raid unfortuantely the carriers were out of range by 1 Hex to escor the strike and my Superfort force was decimated.
Had they been available to shut down Tinian on day 1 and Saipan on day 2 who knows my tactical skills were let down I did not allow enough slippage in my sprinting carriers .
However I have to agree this has not been my finest hour as a player.
Andy
2. Yup KB turned a retreat into a rout
3. Yes had I attacked an isolated base you are correct - I didnt and am paying the price
I actually wasnt worried about getting spotted I actually thought I had sufficient force to take the base quickly I under estimated the amount of losses my Hellcats would take and I also underestimated the fact that I would lose all my MSW's before they swept any mines.
I agree with you rightly or wrongly I am committed so everything has to go in and keep going in most of the LST's got away so they will retire on PH pick up 1st Aussies Corps and 11th Airborne Div and we will go in again.
All but 1 BG of Superforts are resting to build up numbers and the carriers will be sailing in 2 days.
Hornet slipped anchor yesterday as she is slow
I am not putting marine Corsairs on Carriers but will be discussing this issue with Pauk after this battle is over.
My initial plan did call for a surprise mass bombing raid unfortuantely the carriers were out of range by 1 Hex to escor the strike and my Superfort force was decimated.
Had they been available to shut down Tinian on day 1 and Saipan on day 2 who knows my tactical skills were let down I did not allow enough slippage in my sprinting carriers .
However I have to agree this has not been my finest hour as a player.
Andy
RE: Akita Burns
Well don't forget that in the immortal words of a soon-to-be-dead juju-man in Predator 2, "Sheeet 'appen"... and indeed it does. You are committed for now but maybe for the next phase of the offensive go a little shorter 
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Akita Burns
Hey if nothing else my approach to the game is entertaining for all concerned [:D][:D][:D]
Incompetenent perhaps but always entertaining !!!!
Incompetenent perhaps but always entertaining !!!!
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Snowman999
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:08 pm
RE: Akita Burns
ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Hey if nothing else my approach to the game is entertaining for all concerned [:D][:D][:D]
Incompetenent perhaps but always entertaining !!!!
Don't be too hard on yourself. Reading this AAR has given me more insight into what the game can be than all the others combined. I'm seriously considering starting my first PBEM due to your game.
I too thought the force you mustered was unbeatable, mines or no mines. That it wasn't shows more clearly than ever that the land game is unbalanced and I hope, if WITP2 ever comes, that this is addressed. Stacking rules and the ability for CAS and bombardment to knock down fort levels (totally historic) would fundamentally change the game.
Steve
Snowman999
RE: Akita Burns
Thanks Steve unfortunately no excuse as I knew the flaws in the Land Model....
Taking on LBA with Carrier Air (even supported by B29's) is difficult - but have no fear more cunning plans to follow (I never thought my cunning plans would turn out to have results like blackadders....)
The key in the West is still Mandalay - the key in the east is Tinian I need to break both to move forward well so be it !!!!
Taking on LBA with Carrier Air (even supported by B29's) is difficult - but have no fear more cunning plans to follow (I never thought my cunning plans would turn out to have results like blackadders....)
The key in the West is still Mandalay - the key in the east is Tinian I need to break both to move forward well so be it !!!!