How to run US West Coast ports in the black

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: el cid again
The US did NOT have unlimited resources, and found (for example) problems like steel production critical: it is hard to change it fast, and you always need more than you produce - it can do widely different things - and you can only do one thing with any batch of steel. Steel is the most valuable strategic commodoty other than petroleum, and you can use it to frame factories, build bridges or railroads, build vehicles or ships, build artillery or other weapons, and a host of other widely different things. The US had to decide what to do, what not? It was not able to do everything it could dream up all at one time - and there is a lot of detail history about how priorities were sorted out. See for one example The Two Ocean Navy - about building the fleet.

You are absolutely right that even the USA did not have enough of everything to do everything it wanted to do. Or reccognize just exactly what priority should be given to what product (witness the LST shortage). But America had more of almost everything available than anyone else, and came to grips rapidly with the allocation process..., including allocating resources early to build new, larger, and specialized plants to improve production overall. Most of the plants that built our A/C and tanks were empty fields in 1940-41. Couple that to the large unused factory capacity left over from the depression and it's easy to see how half of the entire world's production was coming from the US by War's end.

Not having as much supply as you want on the West Coast in 1942-43 is reasonable..., not having enough to ship and build/repair isn't. But it sounds as if you've come to the same conclusion.

Indeed you are basically correct. It was not the lack of supply but the lack of merchant ship hulls that impeded the logistical effort. It is recorded that there was never enough ships afloat to meet all the supply needs. By 1944 there the West Coast ports were getting congested from too much material needing shipped, and not enough ships, something to the tune of 50 ship loads a month, and getting steadily worse.

[TulliusDetritus]

We should remember what we call "supplies" in WitP: everything except "complete" air, naval and land units, i.e. a land unit needs ammunition or rifles or some canons or mortars? That's what supplies are for. Planes need bullets? Supplies again. A plane must be repaired? Supplies are needed again.

Alaskan Warrior, I can hardly believe that there were no shortages (of what we call "supplies" in WitP) when the war started.

I know this example. After Pearl Harbour attack, the German submarines started a quite successful massacre in the American East Coast. The fact is: there were NOT enough patrol planes (ASW missions) and ASW ships (destroyers, sub chasers, etc.).

As for the Army, they started with only few divisions (like the British on 1939). I very much doubt they could have armed 100 divisions from the very start of the war... Industry needs time.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

El Cid Again, yes, I am already doing that [8D]

My system.

From West Coast:
- Ressources to Panama => and then to New Orleans.
- Supplies to Hawaii, Alaska, Australia and New Zealand.
- Fuel to Alaska, Central/South Pacific, Kangoorooland & Kiwiland.
- Oil to Australia and New Zealand (I forgot this one).

From New Orleans:
- Oil to Panama => and then to West Coast.
- Supplies to Panama => and then to West Coast

In Australia
- Convoys load ressources in Perth (no overland movement) and unload in Melbourne.
- Some cargo ships load ressources in New Caledonia and unload in Melbourne.
- The convoys wich arrive in Australia from the West Coast (with troops, air units) unload AND then load ressources in Melbourne => to West Coast => and then to New Orleans.
- Ressources to Kiwiland.

Middle East (Muscat and Aden)
- Oil to India and Australia.
- Supplies to India and Australia.
Ressources are quite negligible here.

Recife (30k supplies per month):
- convoys to Panama => and then to West Coast

OK - this is good. But now work out the reverse cargos. For example, the ships that carry resources from Perth to Melbourne should return with supplies (or fuel) from Melbourne to Perth. The Allies were very good at this sort of thing - and the Japanese were not. A variation of this is the "triangle route" - something like the classical "slaves, molasses and rum" thing - say carry supplies from Sydney to Noumea - Resources from Noumea to Wellington - fuel from Wellington back to Sydney. Yet another variation is to have outbound troop convoys for (say) Australia (perhaps from San Francisco or San Diego) - then load resources and go to New Orleans - then load supplies or fuel and go back to the West coast. Parillo says the Japanese were very poor at this sort of thing. If they had optimized so that each ship almost always was loaded with useful cargo - that combined with interior lines would have been a major logistical advantage. They also ran three different shipping organizations (army, navy, civil) and these would not usually carry each other's cargo. [Now we should not be too arrogant about this: the US began the war with exactly the same numbar of shipping organizations - serving exactly the same institutions - and did not usually chare cargoes either. But we reformed this practice in a far more timely and complete sense than Japan did.] The point is that in RHS you need to do what happened IRL - run things from where they are in excess to where they are required - and try to do that in a way that actually increases production and available operational supplies and fuel - and then finish up by trying to do that in a way that maximizes total output (ie. run the ships by the most efficient routings possible - whatever that may mean in any particular case). You will find that this is a big challenge - and you can cause enormous increases in available supplies and fuel where they are required if you do it well. Ultimately, the relative way both sides do this - Japan with interior lines and the Allies with exterior lines - determines what is the supply/fuel state where the sharp ends of the stick meet from both sides. IF you are spending MORE time doing the logistics than operational battles - you have finally got it right - and you may be doing well.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: el cid again
The US did NOT have unlimited resources, and found (for example) problems like steel production critical: it is hard to change it fast, and you always need more than you produce - it can do widely different things - and you can only do one thing with any batch of steel. Steel is the most valuable strategic commodoty other than petroleum, and you can use it to frame factories, build bridges or railroads, build vehicles or ships, build artillery or other weapons, and a host of other widely different things. The US had to decide what to do, what not? It was not able to do everything it could dream up all at one time - and there is a lot of detail history about how priorities were sorted out. See for one example The Two Ocean Navy - about building the fleet.

You are absolutely right that even the USA did not have enough of everything to do everything it wanted to do. Or reccognize just exactly what priority should be given to what product (witness the LST shortage). But America had more of almost everything available than anyone else, and came to grips rapidly with the allocation process..., including allocating resources early to build new, larger, and specialized plants to improve production overall. Most of the plants that built our A/C and tanks were empty fields in 1940-41. Couple that to the large unused factory capacity left over from the depression and it's easy to see how half of the entire world's production was coming from the US by War's end.

Not having as much supply as you want on the West Coast in 1942-43 is reasonable..., not having enough to ship and build/repair isn't. But it sounds as if you've come to the same conclusion.

Indeed, what we have tried to do is create a dynamic situation in which the supply on the West Coast grows over time - and reaches its greatest output in 1944 and 1945. We also wanted to have more ship build/repair capacity coming on stream - although it is alleged that that capacity is actually ignored by the game system - and so we included that in the study. At least we are building those yards - wether or not they get used. And when they stop building - the supplies that build them are now available to ship overseas. And a player may suspend building (that is, repair) - and get the supplies sooner - his choice.

A problem not well understood here - one they teach all USN sailors about in basic training - is that the US needs to import or its great industrial potential will grind to a halt. For example, it needs industrial diamonds, and tin, and rubber, and antimony, and 72 other "strategic materials" (to make the total of 76 the Navy teaches boots about). These four named are virtually not produced at all in the US or Canada at all. A lot of the tin and rubber of the world comes from SE Asia - and the antimony from New Caledonia. Anyway - I wanted to create a system that "rewarded" the Allies for exporting resources to the Western Hemisphere - so that is why New Orleans has no resource centers - and once its starting stockpile is used up - it will produce zero supplies and fuel in its HI plants. Now Tillitrius noticed he can send resources from the West coast - and indeed that is very wise and efficient. But my INTENT was that you needed to send them from the Pacific - representing rubber, tin, antimony, chromium, name it. Some of the resources from South American may be tin or rubber as well. Anyway - due to lack of detail - players have rather more options here than IRL - but I tried to get it crudely in the ball park. Send resources to New Orleans- it will mix with oil in HI plants and pay you back in supply points and fuel points.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Andrew Brown did this first with the CHS, leaving the resource and oil centers on the west coast in a largely "damaged" state to simulate the time it took to build up US industry to a total war footing. The only time these locations go "into the pink" is when a player starts loading huge amounts of supply or fuel for shipment to points west without regard to the incoming amount of supply. To me this works quite well...

As I recall, the suggestion was simply do do what Andrew did writ large. So the economy grows for years instead of for a matter of weeks or months. It does seem to work quite well. So do a number of "micro economies." Some work much better if you supply what they are missing. Some work no matter what you do or don't do.

Incorrect. The US economy takes about 2 years to be fully productive in CHS. Not weeks or months. This is achieved through the provision of large numbers of damaged oil and resource centres, which can gradually be repaired throughout the first two years of the game. This results in a much lower amount of supplies being available on the US West Coast at the start of the game, gradually increasing throughout 1942 and 1943.

Andrew

I am sure you know - and I was trying to give you credit for the concept - which I think was very clever. I tried to make things grow for as much as 1440 days - but the basic idea was yours - and my hat is off to you for it. The game was clearly designed to have a steady supply (fuel, name it) rate at any given point - and you invented a way for it to become dynamic. I think that is almost as great as your fantastic map system - which IMHO made the game playable.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: el cid again
The US did NOT have unlimited resources, and found (for example) problems like steel production critical: it is hard to change it fast, and you always need more than you produce - it can do widely different things - and you can only do one thing with any batch of steel. Steel is the most valuable strategic commodoty other than petroleum, and you can use it to frame factories, build bridges or railroads, build vehicles or ships, build artillery or other weapons, and a host of other widely different things. The US had to decide what to do, what not? It was not able to do everything it could dream up all at one time - and there is a lot of detail history about how priorities were sorted out. See for one example The Two Ocean Navy - about building the fleet.

You are absolutely right that even the USA did not have enough of everything to do everything it wanted to do. Or reccognize just exactly what priority should be given to what product (witness the LST shortage). But America had more of almost everything available than anyone else, and came to grips rapidly with the allocation process..., including allocating resources early to build new, larger, and specialized plants to improve production overall. Most of the plants that built our A/C and tanks were empty fields in 1940-41. Couple that to the large unused factory capacity left over from the depression and it's easy to see how half of the entire world's production was coming from the US by War's end.

Not having as much supply as you want on the West Coast in 1942-43 is reasonable..., not having enough to ship and build/repair isn't. But it sounds as if you've come to the same conclusion.

Indeed you are basically correct. It was not the lack of supply but the lack of merchant ship hulls that impeded the logistical effort. It is recorded that there was never enough ships afloat to meet all the supply needs. By 1944 there the West Coast ports were getting congested from too much material needing shipped, and not enough ships, something to the tune of 50 ship loads a month, and getting steadily worse.

This is quite correct - and you will find that no matter what you do you could always use more ships. Note that we calculated the ships required to run the SLOC to the map edge entry points in Level 5 - and 9999ed them out of the game. As we gave you more of those SLOCs in Level 6 - we returned some of these ships to you. As we gave you still more SLOCs in Level 7 - we gave you the rest that had been removed for that reason - and some extras that basically only worked those SLOCs as well. What is still absent is the ships (AKs and TKs) associated with the economy we cannot simulate because the ratio of resources consumed to oil is not right in the present system. If that ratio is ever fixed (or better made under soft control) - we will give you those ships as well - and more resources to move with them. [There are indications this might happen bye and bye] But no matter how many ships you have - you will always find there are cargos you wish you could move that must wait for some ship or other to come and get them. The longer the routes, the longer the delay until they arrive. You will wish for new construction to appear when you want it where you need it - and when that actually happens you will say "good news" - this time. And replacing "AKs to burn" with this sort of system was my design intent for RHS. Now we need to "calibrate" (measure) it and make appropriate corrections whereever.

[Ian R]

"I know this example. After Pearl Harbour attack, the German submarines started a quite successful massacre in the American East Coast. The fact is: there were NOT enough patrol planes (ASW missions) and ASW ships (destroyers, sub chasers, etc.). "
 
Don't forget that Admiral King (who took personal command of 10th fleet) for some reason didn't immediately institute convoys. Even unprotected convoys reduce sinkings, simply because for the U-Boats finding them in the vast expanse of the ocean is no easy proposition. And a blackout so the coastal traffic wasn't silhouetted would have helped.

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Bradfordkay, yes, Andrew Brown invented the "damaged HI, ressources, etc." concept. Intelligent, indeed. Now, I remember that I could send the same hundreds of thousands of supplies almost since the 7th december. There were supplies in astronomical quantities (compared with RHS, that is).

Not in my CHS 2.08 game. There may be more supplies than in RHS, but I have to be careful not to use up all the supplies in the major ports (Aden, Seattle, LA, SD and to only a slightly lesser extent SF).

EDIT: Andrew clarified the situation. Thanks.