You will love this game

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Wed May 01, 2002 1:01 am

Hi, while mines may not have damaged or sunk capital ships check sub's lost and you will find quite a few from both sides lost to mines (often their own) The mine is an anti sub weapon as well as anti ship. Has any play tester had any subs strike a mine?

Crocky · Post by **Crocky** » Wed May 01, 2002 1:21 am

Yep I lost 1 the other day and I think Rick has lost 2 or 3 subs to mines

MalleusDei · Post by **MalleusDei** » Wed May 01, 2002 1:52 am

If it's left in you will get seriously ahistorical games, and no doubt it will be expolited.

It wasn't a factor. It needs to come out.

jshaniii · Post by **jshaniii** » Wed May 01, 2002 1:55 am

I don't think there's any problem barring ovveruse by the AI.

Ron Saueracker · Post by **Ron Saueracker** » Wed May 01, 2002 2:05 am

Where can mines be laid, just in coastal areas? Is there, or should there be, a limit to the number of mines available? The use of mines seems a bit excessive, and is starting to remind me of the ahistorical use of destroyer torpedoes vs. subs in Ultimation's pathetic release "Destroyer Command" on the Eagle/Wolfpack League site. Sounds like the mines should be toned down as the Uber PT Boats were as I've heard no more complaints about PTs gaining sea control vs IJN bombardment groups.

Crocky · Post by **Crocky** » Wed May 01, 2002 2:37 am

OK lets explain the situation a bit more about Rick and my game
with regards to mining and let people form there own opinion.

Until I check I would say there have been about 6-8 ships sunk by mine and about 4 subs now the ships that have been sunk are all AP/AK/DD types and these numbers are out of approximately 170 vessels that have gone down. We have probably both been alot more active 120 days into a campaign than historically happened.

The start of the campaign I sent several of my subs oout to lay mines off Port Moresby/Brisbane etc not a problem there try to inflict damage on his merchants and maybe get a bigger fish if Im lucky...

Also move to take Lunga and Tualgi early and proceeded to mine heavily the approaches to these two bases to try and deter the inevitable Allied counter-attack...

Ricks mining to this stage has been mainly around his bases to stop my subs getting to close and in a couple of other cases to stop my bombardment TFs getting at his basesin New Guinea he has also laid some mines in straits where my convoys tend to use and a couple of fields near my bases

The mines near your bases are not a problem you can sweep them at your leisure around enemy bases they create a operational problem in trying to clear them before your TFs or troops can attack the base as Rick found out to his cost

The easiest solution is to route your convoys around known minefields IMHO

MalleusDei · Post by **MalleusDei** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:10 am

The Japanese COULD have started kamikaze warfare in 1942, if they had chosen to.

Just because a side could have done something is not reason to stick it in the game. In good game design, you only model things in your simulation that had significant effects in real life.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:25 am

Well using your philosohy mines should only sink subs merchants DD and Sweepers. (cause they never sank any in WW2)
But then the players could just ignore them and send TF's right on through. I admit you can not prove a negitive, but I would guess mines did in fact influence commanders. They swept enemy mines before allowing areas to be traveled. The real life admirals are very picky about their ships. If the players in the game ignore mines then they have to face the risk. Mines did sink ships (the only US merchants damaged/sunk by mines occured in this theatre. Capital ships have escorts, they are supposed to also look for mines as well as subs. (The ship I was on during Desert Storm did the mine searching for the USS America TF, 2 ships hit mines during Gulf War and we knew they were being used but there were no mine sweepers),
Something that did not happen, but could possibly have happened except for counter measures should be included. Making the players also use the counter measures. Mines did sink ships in the Pacific! Submarines are ships and the most likely to encounter mines since they often try sneaking in where they are present.

siRkid · Post by **siRkid** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:05 am

Originally posted by Crocky
Just looking at the game Rick and I are playing he has established defensive minefields around his major bases in an effort to deter bombardment TFs and subs from coming to close which IMHO is a fair enough use of mines....also there are the odd sub laid minefield around my ports ...so the minesweepers are busy

Hey, have you been reading my naval messages?

siRkid · Post by **siRkid** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:08 am

Originally posted by MalleusDei
If it's left in you will get seriously ahistorical games, and no doubt it will be expolited.

It wasn't a factor. It needs to come out.

You can always make an agrement with anyone you play to linit the use of mines. But it should be left in for those of us who enjoy it.

Crocky · Post by **Crocky** » Wed May 01, 2002 5:44 am

Finschafen falls

After a month of bombardment from the air the Imperial 65th brigade has finally succumbed to the superior numbers of the allied forces.

Luckily the Imperial Japanese Navy was on had to evacuate 4000 of the 7000 strong brigade the day before the base fell.

boomboom · Post by **boomboom** » Wed May 01, 2002 6:07 am

If I'm playing Japan,I shure as hell what an ahistorcial outcome.My two cents,leave it in.It's a weapon that was used.during that time.To me,it addes to the game.Something your going to have to account for.Use your mines,minesweapers in ahistorcial way,you will get ahistorcial results.
HEY MODERATOR,WHEN YOU GOING TO CHANGE MY USERNAME TO BOOMBOOM?

Rob Roberson · Post by **Rob Roberson** » Wed May 01, 2002 10:27 am

If you are worried about the game being ahistorical then why play. The Japanese lose the war. Any other outcome is ahistorical. Any weapons platform that was available to the combatants should be available in the game. If I sow Ironbottem so full of mines that you can walk across them..so be it. That my decision as the commander. Give me the tools and I will decide how best to employ them.

Rob Roberson · Post by **Rob Roberson** » Fri May 03, 2002 6:03 am

Dont let the debate stop the AAR reporting! I am dying to find out how this goes...

.

siRkid · Post by **siRkid** » Fri May 03, 2002 6:59 am

Originally posted by Rob Roberson
Dont let the debate stop the AAR reporting! I am dying to find out how this goes....

Sorry but I've been tied up with work and family. Also things have slowed down a bit after the huge carrier and land battles. I am off tomorrow so I will bring everything up to date as far as the allies.

Rick

nelmsm1 · Post by **nelmsm1** » Fri May 03, 2002 8:37 am

I can't wait until that update. I hadn't planned on trying to buy this game until I started reading this thread. Now I am going to have to find out how much my wife really loves me!

Crocky · Post by **Crocky** » Fri May 03, 2002 9:10 am

Dusk falls and the BB Haruna slips from her mooring along with attending cruisers and destroyers.........Just as she clears the heads of Rabual and starts to make her way into to the Coral Sea towards her destination a loud explosion shakes her from stem to stern. Action stations sounds and the destroyers rush past the stricken battleship searching for her assailant

The destroyers slow a begin to search for the offending submarine suddenly another explosion and one of the DDs comes to a grinding halt the relisation dawns no sub is found and a small spherical object is spotted of the port bow....we had stumbled into a previosly uncharted minefield.

The Admiral surveys the scene and gives the orders to return to port.

**** you Rick when did that sub lay that damned minefield:mad:

Ron Saueracker · Post by **Ron Saueracker** » Fri May 03, 2002 9:28 am

I can see that minesweeping is going to be a major task. I wonder if there is a "minesweeping routine" or something similar? You know, like a mission setting for MS class ships.

Supervisor · Post by **Supervisor** » Fri May 03, 2002 9:39 am

I can see that minesweeping is going to be a major task. I wonder if there is a "minesweeping routine" or something similar? You know, like a mission setting for MS class ships.

Would be useful. Sort of a mine patrol of the area surrounding the port/anchorage. Within a set radius (1 maybe?). Be able to set up ship(s) to do automatic, routine sweeps. Possibly even routine sweeps thru designated hexes (straits, etc.)

Automation is nice

.

Ron Saueracker · Post by **Ron Saueracker** » Fri May 03, 2002 12:49 pm

Otherwise, I'm gonna forget. Just like I would with submarine patrols, despite how much I enjoy sub ops. I was never any good at aircraft endurances and the like, and forgetting to bring them home (subs) and have them die out there through their own lack of initiative to return to base would and could ruin a well played game up to that point. As if all MS ships would neglect their duty, not all are named the Caine and have a paranoid nut like Queeg in command worried more about strawberries than the harbor approaches.:p

You will love this game

mines and subs

mines

Mine fields

mones again

Hey kid

Mines

AAAAGGGG

Re: AAAAGGGG