To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question...

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: wargamer123

.. Believe me, I know I have been buying wargames since before Puberty.

Well, by this definition I'm a "Johnny come lately," but from my own experience, demos are more geared for the grognard -- someone who already knows what they like/dislike in a game -- than the casual gamer.

I started gaming -- after being assigned to a remote military post w/nothing better to do -- via Koei Nintendo ports, eventually graduating to the PC after I bought titles like HttR and UV in retail stores; this was the bait that got me hooked into these forums, so I think retail (vs. online) sales is more effective than a demo for attracting the attention of the novice gamer.

Not that I have anything against demos, but a broader release of CEaW, CaW, etc., will get Slitherine, SSG et al more casual gamers than a demo will.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: wargamer123
I have worked in software creation! I know for a fact that Matrix is wrong, it is in my opinion laziness. I have been in the Software Industry as a customer for 18-19 years, an admirer for more... I have been making money in it as well!

DEMOS sell!!! Unless what you're selling is purposely concealing something in order to get that 'purchase'... Screenshots, Writeups, Stories all that is hogwash, i.e. Masters of Orion III!!! Jesus! Ahmen!

The more you advertise, the more that people see what you have the better. When you offer them your Engine up for Examination, they get the gist of it. They fall in love or they loathe it, but either way you end up with a satisfied customer. That is the Goal of the Software Developer, that and make money. If you do not do both you will not succeed and your endeavor is fruitless!

Believe me, I know I have been buying wargames since before Puberty.

Well, who can argue with that? [;)]

Seriously, if you think we're lazy, I encourage you to come work for us someday. That should fix that misconception. I don't see why you'd assume that I'm lying. Demos do not always sell WARgames, period. Demos do work very well for some other genres which we don't generally sell. Apples and oranges. Our goal is also satisfied customers, but there are many ways to achieve that same goal.

Regards,

- Erik

[IainMcNeil]

CEAW has already released at retail in Spain & Russia. France & French speaking areas (Swiss, Belgium etc), Italy, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic and Germany & German speaking areas (Swiss, Austria etc) all to come in the next few months. USA and UK retail is a nightmare for PC games these days and very hard to get in. Matrix is almost entirely US & UK based so if it's not out in those countries people probably assume it's not out anywhere. Only a small portion of total sales will come from online sales, probably less than 10%. This game has strong online sales, but for our other games probably ~1% of sales are online and 99% at retail.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil
... USA and UK retail is a nightmare for PC games these days and very hard to get in ...

Why is that? I recently saw Slitherine's "Rome, Great Battles" in a Circuit City store; I take it that this is unusual.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Why is that? I recently saw Slitherine's "Rome, Great Battles" in a Circuit City store; I take it that this is unusual.

That is actually a pretty long story, but Iain's quite right about the US retail market for PC Games. It was tough when we started Matrix and it's only become much more difficult since. We've still put at least a couple of games into retail each year, but frankly if we relied on retail we wouldn't be in business.

Regards,

- Erik

[cptracks]

Guess I'll throw in my two cents. Personally I rate this game several big notches above SC1, haven't tried SC2 or variants, nor am I likely to with this one on the hard drive. AI not really great but it can surprise (arriving in front of Moscow at 2/3 to 1/2 strength will give you cause for reflection). Where I am finding that this one shines is playing other people. This is the first game that enticed me into pbem and its well worth it. While I (used to) love the big monsters with intimate details I just don't have a lot of extra time and this one fits the bill quite well.

[IainMcNeil]

We get in to retail with our core internally developed games which have much higher budgets than Commander, which is essentially developed by one guy (Johan). We give a lot of support (design, music, sound etc) and arrange all the deals for retail release across Europe but in the UK and US there is just no demand for this type of game at retail. The Great Battles of Rome also has the History Channel branding and movies and more importantly is multi format - PC, PS2 and PSP. In Europe it also had a huge TV advertising campaign as well as great support from the History Channel in each territory and has been top 5 in all trritories in retail sales. In the US we've had a tougher time because the PC version is coming out before the PS2 and PSP because of delays with Sony approvals.
 
We are not planning any PC only titles ourselves at the moment.

[wargamer123]

Yes, the US market is flakey. There is however a portion of people who'll purchase these types of Titles, when I managed the Largest Computer Retail Shop in the Eastern USA, Third Reich-High Command-etc... were sold out! But of course it was near a military base, with remote, lonely guys, who love war.. Like me I'm a history buff... Quake, Doom, RTS, the Arcade, RP, etc... Genres were still #1, Strategy Wargames were always second seat. I finally found Strategic Command 1 for sale bundled with 4 Titles, so I assume they were pushing for any sort of sale at that point
 
The Internet is Massive now, many avoid the Retail Market, most of us have HighSpeed Internet... So the Grognards as you guys call them will "Search!" However there are some who are not Internet Saavy, so don't assume if you could afford to market a game it would be a hit, I assume the Cost isn't worth it...
 
I had a percentage share in a Army Program, We sold it to an Army Service Store. You know you're going to sell
 
I would hate to see a game not sell, I would work with you guys, I would love to. I have dreamed of inventing my own wargame for years, starting off with a boardgame, they're much work though. I know it! A Demo wouldn't be hard to program if you simplified the process, by "ending the game at fall of france," a few scripts. Zip!
 
let me do you a little favor, goto PanzerLiga.com big site for Panzer General, SC and ask the Moderator there, in fact I'll ask him for you... he may... Do a poll of hundreds of Grognards if they'd buy if the Demo was favorable if it is, 5,000 bucks is worth cutting the game off at fall of Poland, fall of France
 
Period
 
Johan, Congrats, I never dreamt you'd do it... Be the FrontRunner with your Work, always.. Never let anyone steal your baby, no matter the work, don't be convinced and keep your dream alive by building "more!"
 
 

[IainMcNeil]

We're already in contact with the Panzer Liga guys. We gave them a free copy to review it and hopefully start some games going over there. It will really take off when the German version is released though.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: wargamer123
Yes, the US market is flakey. There is however a portion of people who'll purchase these types of Titles, when I managed the Largest Computer Retail Shop in the Eastern USA, Third Reich-High Command-etc... were sold out! But of course it was near a military base, with remote, lonely guys, who love war.. Like me I'm a history buff... Quake, Doom, RTS, the Arcade, RP, etc... Genres were still #1, Strategy Wargames were always second seat. I finally found Strategic Command 1 for sale bundled with 4 Titles, so I assume they were pushing for any sort of sale at that point

Yeah, the retail market then was MUCH different from how it is now though.

The Internet is Massive now, many avoid the Retail Market, most of us have HighSpeed Internet... So the Grognards as you guys call them will "Search!" However there are some who are not Internet Saavy, so don't assume if you could afford to market a game it would be a hit, I assume the Cost isn't worth it...

Note that we're not just guessing on this either - we send PC wargames to US retail pretty much every year and monitor how they sell.

Regards,

- Erik

[O.O. Howard]

I am with you, cptracks. Commander is better than SC. But I just noticed a game called 'making history' about WWII. It looked like it might be good.[/align] [/align]Now that i am getting to know you guys i trust your opinions(well, some of you[:'(]) and i wonder if anyone has tried 'Making History'. If so, tell me what you think.[/align]

[decaro]

I don't know whether you trust me or not, but I did purchase Making History ; I placed an advance order for it based on a national magazine review I read while waiting in my dentist's office.

Not a bad game, considering its $20 plus pricetag. It's easier to learn than HoI, but HoI2 Doomsday is still cheaper and gives you more options.

MH is similar to a turn-based HoI -- which isn't a bad idea as CEaW is a cross between HoI and PG -- but MH has its limitations. Originally, the software was a learning device to teach students WW II by becoming a nation in that conflict and managing all its resources, diplomacey and military.

But even w/a new patch, I thought the game was over-rated. And you need a good video card for it's icon global graphics.

MH has its own forum, and there must be plently of player reviews you can tap after an online search.

[SMK-at-work]

I tried the demo of MH (hey that's topical!!;)) - it was an intersting game, but had a couple of basic flaws as a simulation that I didnt' like - eg you can only produce 1 unit type in an area - patent nonsense IMO.  Such a simple error in otherwise fairly sophisticated game makes it less of a wargame and more of the learnign tool it was built upon.
 
I rate the demo the same as CEAW or SC2 - interesting but simulation-lite.  Having 2 such games already I felt zero desire to have a third, even though it is substantially different from teh otehr 2.

[PunkReaper]

Just bought CEAW....having great fun.....don't dilly or dally just buy and enjoy...you know you want to!

[targul]

I bought and played MH. It was fun for about a weak so if you like very weak games that are easy to play both it and this one are good. Both this and that game lack any real historical appeal.

As to games they are both okay but neither is based on WWII unless you believe air, navy and tanks make a game WWII but for me I require some real WWII concepts.

Good luck you will enjoy both for very short periods I know I did and most of those who own it say just about the same thing.

[firepowerjohan]

ORIGINAL: targul

I bought and played MH. It was fun for about a weak so if you like very weak games that are easy to play both it and this one are good. Both this and that game lack any real historical appeal (not talking about this one post but your whole history and presence on forums).

As to games they are both okay but neither is based on WWII unless you believe air, navy and tanks make a game WWII but for me I require some real WWII concepts.

Good luck you will enjoy both for very short periods I know I did and most of those who own it say just about the same thing.

Your opinion is not that of the majority and after monitoring this for a long while (your posting history) my conclusion is that you are actively spreading rumors and half truths about CEaW. We have gamespot votes, reviews and also a voting topic (that you also posted in hence read) where ppl on this forum rated CEaW and everything suggests that you speak for a minority at best since most ppl say they enjoy the game!

P.S
A while back you said you were leaving this game and forum and wished to head back to Battlefront and play SC2. Now that you evidently are back one can wonder if your intent is to start playing this game again or to continue where you left of (as seems by the posts) to throw dirt on CEaW, Slitherine, Matrix, Firepower and everyone else here that are trying to make good wargames. If SC2 really is that good and since you rated CEaW as mediocre previously, what is it that drives you back here?

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

ORIGINAL: targul

I bought and played MH. It was fun for about a weak so if you like very weak games that are easy to play both it and this one are good. Both this and that game lack any real historical appeal (not talking about this one post but your whole history and presence on forums).

As to games they are both okay but neither is based on WWII unless you believe air, navy and tanks make a game WWII but for me I require some real WWII concepts.

Good luck you will enjoy both for very short periods I know I did and most of those who own it say just about the same thing.

Your opinion is not that of the majority and after monitoring this for a long while (your posting history) my conclusion is that you are actively spreading rumors and half truths about CEaW. We have gamespot votes, reviews and also a voting topic (that you also posted in hence read) where ppl on this forum rated CEaW and everything suggests that you speak for a minority at best since most ppl say they enjoy the game!

P.S
A while back you said you were leaving this game and forum and wished to head back to Battlefront and play SC2. Now that you evidently are back one can wonder if your intent is to start playing this game again or to continue where you left of (as seems by the posts) to throw dirt on CEaW, Slitherine, Matrix, Firepower and everyone else here that are trying to make good wargames. If SC2 really is that good and since you rated CEaW as mediocre previously, what is it that drives you back here?

I find this post patently offensive.

While I did simply walked away from this game I found extremely little satisfaction with I have contimued to look in on this forum.

You might want to open your eyes to the simple fact of reality that just because an opinion is in the minority does NOT mean that it is incorrect.

The MAJORITY once believed the earth was flat.

The MAJORITY once believed the earth was the center of the solar system.

Given the veracity of the historical failures of the MAJORITY to get things right, I personally, tend to lean toward an acceptance of the opinions of the minority who often demonstrate far, far greater cognitive powers than the majority.

Your post belies an almost paranoid fear of criticism in a shallow and transparent effort to suppress it.

So your take on things is that when some one makes an inquiry of other gamers through these forums only fanbois need apply?

You should be ashamed.

p.s. In my anger over your post I completely forgot to provide my opinion and recommendation in response to the original poster's question. Don't buy, huge waste of $70.

[IainMcNeil]

I think its hard for the players to understand what it takes to make a game. Johan has spent 2 years of his life making Commander - Europe at War and it is his baby. It's also his first game so he's not experienced at dealing with the negative feedback. When you are so close to a game any attack on it feels like a personal attack on you.

Although you guys have paid your hard earned cash to play the game Johan went for a year and half without getting paid at all to make the game. He could earn a lot more working in a normal job like you guys do, but he has a passion to make games. It takes long long hours and it's a very demanding job. This is not an easy business to be in and it takes people like Johan with such high levels of commitment to keep it going. Whether he'll make enough money to continue doing it full time is still unknown, but what we can say for sure is that Commander is not going to make him rich!

As with all games it will appeal to some and not to others. There is no need to put a game down because it does not meet your sepcific requirements. Sometimes I think people want to force their opinions on others just to validate their own views. This often happens on gaming forums. It's not malicious, just human nature. If you like a game you try to convince other people to like it and vice versa.

I think CEAW is a good game, but I also think SC" is good. Some like one, some like the other, some like both and others like neither! That's life!

After Johan has been through the process a few times he'll take everything less personally and rise above it, but it's a tough learning curve. Let's just cut him some slack for now

[firepowerjohan]

I never meant in any way that we do not want criticism or do not listen to feedback. We have used alot of input from beta testers and players to improve the game in early phases and past release for patches but we also try to explain what we can do for the game engine and what cannot be changed.

When someone cannot accept that and continue to put the game down through hundreds of posts month after month and especially openly promoting some other game I just reacted instinctively like a (any) human of flesh and blood would do.

It is not Paranoia that some players on BF forum started a mockery topic about CEaW as soon as CEaW came out, and most of them admitted they had not even played the game. Reason of course, some veterans players who for some reason wanted to show their loyalty and protect their own favourite game while fighting other games . It is not somehing we want or have asked for but it is just there but I hope it will stay "there" and we will stay "here" so to speak and no need to bash each others.

Yes, my reply was overblown and the timing not suiting at all and nor is English my native language. I agree that was a big mistake and could make my point silly. The reply was rather a reaction to a person complaining about this game for months and I cannot understand what is so fun or exciting as to put down a game at the expense of some other favourite game. It is not good business to react the way I did, but maybe just human [:)]

[Vypuero]

Hans what have you offered in the way of positive suggestions?  You don't always get everything you would want, and Targul has just asked for something and says that if he does not get it the game is broken.  I know that I and others on the forums have seen many of our ideas used and enacted into the game - within the framework of what the developers want and are able to do.

I will also say this: $ Well spent! Most other games I have bought in last couple years I did not play nearly so often and as much as I have (and will) CEAW!