Kongo class AA shell?

[m10bob]

Richard B Frank describes the Japanese having a special AA shell for the 14" main gun called a "Type 3", which must have worked similar to buckshot, in that it exploded with multiple bursts, and was therefore used against parked aircraft when they shelled Henderson Field.
I have found referances to these shells, which are further described as being HE type, with over 300 seperate incendiary bursts.
Are these currently employed in the AA calcualtions of the Japanese ships with 14" guns, and does anybody know if the Type 3 shell was only on the Kongo-class ships?
They certainly were very effective against Henderson field for their HE capability, but I further wonder if they were used successfully against flying planes?

(My source was his excellent book GUADALCANAL)

[Dili]

All main guns from 18" to 8" had [font=arial]Sankaidan Type 3 rounds.[/font]

I dont know if putting a smallish ceiling in a naval gun will work. it would be interesting to know.

[DuckofTindalos]

There were attempts to use them operationally, but no confirmed successes. And no, you can't use them in the game. SP Naval Guns will never fire at aircraft.

[el cid again]

Both Dili and Terminus are correct. You can read about them in John Campbell's Naval Weapons of World War Two. Also in dedicated materials on the AA war (e.g. On Air Defense). The Japanese had both AA and ASW shells for all their big (and almost all their smaller) naval guns. Neither is regarded as particularly effective nor confirmed successful - which is not to say neither ever scored. [The USAAF bomber shot down by Shigure falsely reported it had sunk the ship - cresote in the stacks erupted into flames because of the sudden burst of heat when the ship went to flank speed - and the bomber interpreted that as a bomb hit. At the same time, the ship had not used standard tactics - circle - and because it had not - it was a stable gun platform - so its usually ineffective long 5 inch 50s were fatally effective. A success IRL might well not be confirmed by observers on the Allied side. See Japanese Destroyer Captain. Long regarded as less than scholarly because it was published by a minor publisher, it is just now out in reprint form by US Naval Institute - and in hardback for the first time. Written by Takishi Hara, both the most successful and the most popular Japanese destroyer captain - he was also a gentleman in the Western sense - even on the battlefield - and the author of the IJN Japanese torpedo tactical manual.] The AA shells presented a fearsome sight - gigantic areas of black smoke with fire amidst them - and may have discouraged some fliers from remaining on their runs: in AAA (I am an AAW specialist) we call it a success when the plane fails to deliver its weapons - so that would count even though most laymen think "success" means killing the plane. The AA rockets late in the war were like this writ large - because they fired 28 rounds per weapon - and there were usually three weapons fired at one time - automtically when the aircraft reached a certain range (that is, 84 rounds at one time - all about 5 inch caliber). It is almost certain these scored success in the AAW sense, wether or not any aircraft was ever destroyed by them. And it would be almost impossible to know if a plane shot down was due to being hit by one when there were many AA guns in the same action: the Allies had a policy not to confirm Japanese successes for PR reason (see the Baloon bombing campaign for an example writ large - and see Silent Siege for a list of all the sites we have confirmed strikes - a fairly terrible rambling work by Burt Webber which nevertheless is the only complete listing available.]

In game terms, it is difficult to simulate these weapons, even if we were able to agree on a (low) effectiveness rating. AA and DP guns need an altitude and a range value - and effective range vs aircraft is much less than against ships. If we gave the gun its AA range, it would be really bad off in a surface battle at long range (unable to fire). If we gave it its surface range, it could shoot planes at unrealistic ranges. [And no gun can shoot at a submerged submarine - even those guns - e.g. the short guns - which were mainly around just for that purpose. So the ASW weapons are in the same boat.]
RHS has given you ASW Projectors and DP short guns - but has not yet figured out a solution to do this.

The one thing that IS in the game is your example: the bombardment of Henderson by 14 inch guns is indeed effective.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
The one thing that IS in the game is your example: the bombardment of Henderson by 14 inch guns is indeed effective.

Maybe in the game..., but in real life? It was done to neutralize the airfield so a convoy could bring in additional troops and equipment..., and in spite of it's "effectiveness" 12 hours later A/C from Henderson virtually destroyed the convoy. "Effective" is not the word I'd have chosen....

[el cid again]

I don't mean they will always take out an airfield. The game well simulates the possibilities. Run in more ships - run in by daylight - you have a better shot at it. A night raid by one or two battleships not sticking around very long - the game is right - it should not take it down hard.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Dili

All main guns from 18" to 8" had [font=arial]Sankaidan Type 3 rounds.[/font]

I dont know if putting a smallish ceiling in a naval gun will work. it would be interesting to know.

I have read about the 18" version that it tended to damage the barrel of the gun, so captains were reluctant to put them into use. The Musashi only fired her main guns once in anger and that was when she was sinking and the captain figured what the heck? The Sankaidan shells made a big boom, but had no effect on incoming TBMs.

I haven't heard about this with smaller caliber Sankaidans, so I don't know if there was a similar reluctance to use them.

Bill

[el cid again]

The only way to get the guns to work is to classify them as DP - and then set a low ceiling but a long range. This is somewhat more correct for the larger guns - but the mediums could really elevate. The Japanese navy were sufficiently impressed with 8 inch AA fire they made single mountings - and of course those could elevate and train better. We found two at Singapore a couple of years ago. Two more have shown up on an island - apprently this year. They look very modern - like a US 5 inch 54 in its latest mounting - and they were apparently sufficiently effective at Singapore that B-29s were directed to stay out of range.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The only way to get the guns to work is to classify them as DP - and then set a low ceiling but a long range. This is somewhat more correct for the larger guns - but the mediums could really elevate. The Japanese navy were sufficiently impressed with 8 inch AA fire they made single mountings - and of course those could elevate and train better. We found two at Singapore a couple of years ago. Two more have shown up on an island - apprently this year. They look very modern - like a US 5 inch 54 in its latest mounting - and they were apparently sufficiently effective at Singapore that B-29s were directed to stay out of range.

Interestingly enough the British designed their 8" guns also to fire as LR AA. Slow rate of fire and inadequate dire control made this not very effective, but it could be used. All the British 8" gun cruisers had 70 degree elevation (except Exeter Mk II* mounts had only 50 degree elevation).

[JeffroK]

Tirpitz was able to use its 15" Main Guns against 9 & 617 Sqns, as it was soon hit by a number of 12,000lb Tallboys we'll never know if they had potential.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Interestingly enough the British designed their 8" guns also to fire as LR AA. Slow rate of fire and inadequate dire control made this not very effective, but it could be used. All the British 8" gun cruisers had 70 degree elevation (except Exeter Mk II* mounts had only 50 degree elevation).

The DUTCH cruisers in the game had "dual purpose" six inch guns as well. This may explain why there were no "heavy" AA guns - they had "really heavy" AA guns!

Any interest in rating these sorts of things as DP??? [the effect values are not very large for large guns already]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Tirpitz was able to use its 15" Main Guns against 9 & 617 Sqns, as it was soon hit by a number of 12,000lb Tallboys we'll never know if they had potential.

Was there an AA round, or just fused HE? Being in a fixed location in a fjord, it was possible only to approach from a predictable direction - it may be a special case.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Interestingly enough the British designed their 8" guns also to fire as LR AA. Slow rate of fire and inadequate dire control made this not very effective, but it could be used. All the British 8" gun cruisers had 70 degree elevation (except Exeter Mk II* mounts had only 50 degree elevation).

The DUTCH cruisers in the game had "dual purpose" six inch guns as well.

Any interest in rating these sorts of things as DP??? [the effect values are not very large for large guns already]

Of course, why not, and while we are at it the 6" guns on the Richelieu were also designed to be DP.

[el cid again]

Working on this. Give me any data you have about how to rate altitude for ANY of these weapons. I won't tamper with effect - it is too tied in to other functions and low enough not to be worth a lot in AA anyway - so it should not be a problem. I will redefine as DP guns and define altitude - pretty simple.

[trollelite]

What's the use of those massive rocket barrage on jap ships? This is defined as SS rocket..... Can I say it's useless unless you use those ships as part of amphi assualt TF?

It's ceiling value is set to 0, this means it can never be used as AA weapon.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Working on this. Give me any data you have about how to rate altitude for ANY of these weapons. I won't tamper with effect - it is too tied in to other functions and low enough not to be worth a lot in AA anyway - so it should not be a problem. I will redefine as DP guns and define altitude - pretty simple.

I cannot find any hard data on the British 8in except that the max elevation was only 70deg which would limit the max effective alt some what and a 30sec flight of shell is ~17k yards. My guess is 30sec max fuse, barrage fire. The 70 deg elevation will limit elevation to approx 80% max effective alt. Effective at 90deg is about 2/3 horizontal distance. 30 sec of horizontal flight would be ~17k yards/51k ft. Thus .8*((2*51)/3)= 26.4k feet.

For the Dutch only the De Reyter and Tromp had this potential with 60deg elevation and probably barrage fire only. My guess would be approx 66% of max effective altitude. I do not have any firm time of flight data. An educated guess would be about 24k feet?

For the French 152 mm/55 (6") Model 1930 85deg max potential ceiling is 46k feet. Elevation was limited to 75deg (designed 90deg) for loading purposes during the war on the Richelieu. Again I have insufficient data on hand, but probably close to 30k feet would seem about right.

[Dili]

I only know AA japanese rockets.

[el cid again]

Yes - these we have already (in RHS). They are mounted on a variation of the 25 mm mounting, there are 28 tubes per mounting, and usually there are 3 mountings per side. They are fired automatically at a certain range (electrically) - optimum for the round. A 49.6 pound (22.5 kg) rocket was used fused for 1000 m or 1500 m (i.e. 5.5 sec or 8.5 sec).
The mount fired in pairs, either single pairs or 14 pairs in succession (operator's choice) - so the result was a stream of rockets in the latter case. A Ward-Leonard "fire control computer" was normally used - but there was a two man manual backup system - just as is normal for AAA - one for elevation, one for traverse. Maximum range was 4.8 km. Mount weight just under 1.6 metric tons. Elevating 18 deg / sec, training 22 deg / sec.

FYI this was a BRITISH (specifically RN) invention - and not a very successful one. They used a 7 inch (177.8 mm) weapon. Also a 3 inch one.

[Dili]

Yes the UP was a crap, worse the parachute with favorable wind could send the bomb against the ship that fired it. The Japanese ones are said to be useless.

[el cid again]

I'll bet dollars to donuts you would not want to have me shoot them at you. Not even one pair. Wether or not you were in an aircraft.