Start Lines in Scandinavia

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Yes, but Lebensraum doesn't start in S/O 1941 - it starts in M/J. There is no scenario in WiF:FE, to my knowledge, that starts in S/O 1941.

Ah, that answers my open question. Lebensraum is the same as Barbarossa for determining start lines in Europe (see my post above). For the rest of the map the 1941 startlines are used.

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Yes, but Lebensraum doesn't start in S/O 1941 - it starts in M/J. There is no scenario in WiF:FE, to my knowledge, that starts in S/O 1941.

Yeah, I noticed that ages ago and was going to post but I assumed something must have changed and didn't want to look like a dumbass.

There should be a difference between S/O and N/D start lines. Lets assume that S/O means the beginning of October on average and N/D means the beginning of December. From memory Operation Typhoon was launched on Oct 2 and finally petered out on Dec 4. In that time, Army Group Centre advanced from just east of Smolensk to the gates of Moscow, including 2 huge encirclements near Vyazma and Bryansk. That's a considerable distance.

Cheers, Neilster

[Update]

Greetings!
 
I just registered for the forums due to finding out about this project.
I am sorry if I´m late at this discussion but the starting lines for Finland in 1941 looks really weird, if I´m understanding it correctly (the thick red line, right?).
In June 1941 Finnish troops were not in the possession of Hanko peninsula, Viipuri (Why the russian name Vyborg?) nor did they possess any of the East-Karelia (Itä-Karjala) or the hexes around Laatokka (Lake Ladoka). They all had been lost during the Winter War peace settlement in 1940. Exception was the most eastern area around Lake Onega (Ääninen) which were never part of Finland but were occupied in 1941 to 1942 due to the favorable defensive lines for Finns.
The loss of these areas was part of the reason for the Continuation War (Jatkosota) of 1941-1944.
Anyway, I don't know what the historical accuracy should be with this game, so.....[&:]
 
Pertti

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Pertti

Greetings!

I just registered for the forums due to finding out about this project.
I am sorry if I´m late at this discussion but the starting lines for Finland in 1941 looks really weird, if I´m understanding it correctly (the thick red line, right?).
In June 1941 Finnish troops were not in the possession of Hanko peninsula, Viipuri (Why the russian name Vyborg?) nor did they possess any of the East-Karelia (Itä-Karjala) or the hexes around Laatokka (Lake Ladoka). They all had been lost during the Winter War peace settlement in 1940. Exception was the most eastern area around Lake Onega (Ääninen) which were never part of Finland but were occupied in 1941 to 1942 due to the favorable defensive lines for Finns.
The loss of these areas was part of the reason for the Continuation War (Jatkosota) of 1941-1944.
Anyway, I don't know what the historical accuracy should be with this game, so.....[&:]

Pertti

Pertii, would you be as kind as editing the bitmaps that show the start lines (that are posted here), and draw on them (even if it crude drawing, we don't care) the start lines that you think would be more appropriate / historical ? I won't swear that we would modify the start lines or not, but I suppose that if your proposals are both more historical, and no game breakers, we would apply them.

Obviously, all the people here will give their opinion about your proposals too.

Edit : You can even propose 1940 start lines if you want.

[JagdFlanker]

looking at the 1941 start lines they are identical to the 1942 ones and i'd say at best they would represent dec 31 1941, not june 22 1941 since it would seem that the germans have already surrounded leningrad

[Update]

I see what I can do during the next couple of days.
By the way, how´s Finnish forces coming along otherwise? Being Finn, I might have a little bit better access to documents and info than some others. So, if you need any facts checked up etc. feel free to bother me. [:D]
 
Gotta go.
 
Pertti
 
 

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: Pertti

I see what I can do during the next couple of days.
By the way, how´s Finnish forces coming along otherwise? Being Finn, I might have a little bit better access to documents and info than some others. So, if you need any facts checked up etc. feel free to bother me. [:D]

Gotta go.

Pertti

PM coming your way.

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Pertti

Greetings!

I just registered for the forums due to finding out about this project.
I am sorry if I´m late at this discussion but the starting lines for Finland in 1941 looks really weird, if I´m understanding it correctly (the thick red line, right?).
In June 1941 Finnish troops were not in the possession of Hanko peninsula, Viipuri (Why the russian name Vyborg?) nor did they possess any of the East-Karelia (Itä-Karjala) or the hexes around Laatokka (Lake Ladoka). They all had been lost during the Winter War peace settlement in 1940. Exception was the most eastern area around Lake Onega (Ääninen) which were never part of Finland but were occupied in 1941 to 1942 due to the favorable defensive lines for Finns.
The loss of these areas was part of the reason for the Continuation War (Jatkosota) of 1941-1944.
Anyway, I don't know what the historical accuracy should be with this game, so.....[&:]

Pertti

Pertii, would you be as kind as editing the bitmaps that show the start lines (that are posted here), and draw on them (even if it crude drawing, we don't care) the start lines that you think would be more appropriate / historical ? I won't swear that we would modify the start lines or not, but I suppose that if your proposals are both more historical, and no game breakers, we would apply them.

Obviously, all the people here will give their opinion about your proposals too.

Edit : You can even propose 1940 start lines if you want.

IMHO we should get fundamental stuff like this sorted out. Correct start-lines are pretty important.

Cheers, Neilster

[wosung]

[/quote]

IMHO we should get fundamental stuff like this sorted out. Correct start-lines are pretty important.

Cheers, Neilster

If "correct start-lines are pretty important", maybe some false start lines in China also should be changed? (Lanchou and Sian should be controlled by Nationalist Chinese).

I know it's the wrong thread. But, well [:)]

Regards

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: wosung

IMHO we should get fundamental stuff like this sorted out. Correct start-lines are pretty important.

Cheers, Neilster

If "correct start-lines are pretty important", maybe some false start lines in China also should be changed? (Lanchou and Sian should be controlled by Nationalist Chinese).

I know it's the wrong thread. But, well [:)]

Regards

WIF permits the Communist Chinese a lot of latitude when setting up. They are 'given' two cities as sources of supply; in MWIF that is increased because of the additional cities added to China. So these are the cities the Communist Chinese start out in possession of:

Map.HexControl[LanChow.X, LanChow.Y] := CommunistChina; // 74, 131
Map.HexControl[Sian.X, Sian.Y] := CommunistChina; // 76, 137
Map.HexControl[Yennan.X, Yennan.Y] := CommunistChina; // 73, 137
Map.HexControl[Sining.X, Sining.Y] := CommunistChina; // 73, 128
Map.HexControl[Tianshui.X, Tianshui.Y] := CommunistChina; // 75, 133
Map.HexControl[Ningsia.X, Ningsia.Y] := CommunistChina; // 70, 134
Map.HexControl[Tungkwan.X, Tungkwan.Y] := CommunistChina; // 76, 139

Tha Nationalists set up first and can occupy any hex controlled by the Chinese except the Commnist cities.
The Communists set up second and can occupy any hex controlled by the Chinese except Nationalist cities (and the hex may not be occupied by a Nationalist unit).

This is a very free-wheeling setup for the units, and is in keeping with the freedom given other major powers during setup. Note that the location of the Communist cities limits their supply and therefore dictates them setting up in the north. The Nationalists are constrained likewise, but to a lesser degree.

If we change Lanchow and Sian to Nationalist control it will: (1) go directly against WIF FE rules, and (2) have a major effect on both Communist and Nationalist supply.

[wosung]

Thank you for the elaborate answer.

And I don't want to hijack this thread.

I know it's a board game design issue - just being historical wrong in this special case. Maybe someday, after the upcoming Production in Flames, ADG will release a "China in Flames" (with CCP Partisan HQ's, instead of field HQ's, etc.).

Regards

[Update]

Good Morning,
Here is the Finnish starting lines proposition (based on actual maps, source Finnish Defence Forces history department). This assumes that there was the Winter War between Russia and Finland. If there wasn't then Finland would be neutral as Sweden and Swizerland were. In addition, German forces would not be operating in Lappland (XVIII, XIX, and XXXVI Mountain armies plus 20th Mountain Army group HQ in Rovaniemi).
Anyway, I hope the maps will be downloaded to forum OK.
 
Pertti

[Update]

Dang!!!!
Forgot to embed pictures.
Here is the 40-41 map.

[Update]

And here comes the 42-44 map.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Pertti
Here is the 40-41 map.

If I understand your picture correctly, the 1940 & 1941 start line is on the Finnish / USSR border, and the borderlands are Finnish are Russian.
Except that your take on the Finish Borderlands north of Lake Ladoga are smaller than ours. We originaly had it your way, but we exapanded it for game reasons (to avoid a 4 mover to cut the russian railway in 1 move).
Your 1940-41 start line make sense for a M/J 1941 start, but I suspect that they are used for the N/D 41 scenario start.
Let's wait for Steve to advise here.

On the 1942 map, your start lines are nearly the same as the ones we originaly drew, except for 2 hexes, is that it ?
I think we can correct our start lines to agree with yours, if Steve agrees.

[Froonp]

About the river between Lakes Onega & Ladoga, it is already there, but south of yours.
I think that adding an extra one is not an option.

[Update]

Sorry, I missed that river (Syväri) between the lakes in the map. The Finnish line should be extended next to the river since that was the natural barrier where assault by 17th and 7th divisions was ordered to stop by Mannerheim 24.10.41. (have to read the hexes more throughly![:'(])
 
About the borderlands, The problem for me was that there was a lakeside hex that would have blocked the historical assault by 2nd and 19th divisions towards Laatokka (Ladoga). Therefore, I had to give those two extra hexes for Finns, though the real border would be in the middle of hexes. So, since the distance from border to Laatokka in reality was less than 100 km, I decided to include those two hexes.
 
I do not know what is the best for the gameplay, see what you think.
 
For the N/D 41 scenario, the only difference is the Karhumäki-Poventsa area that was not taken untill 06.12.41 and Hanko which the Russians evacuated, with substancial  losses on the way, by 04.12.41.
Oops, the area (hex) I am talking about is the one north of Ääninen (Onega) where the railroad is and the black line is one hex north of red.
Other than that the 1.1.42 map is accurate for the N/D 41 scenario.
 
Thanks for the feedback,
Pertti

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Pertti

Sorry, I missed that river (Syväri) between the lakes in the map. The Finnish line should be extended next to the river since that was the natural barrier where assault by 17th and 7th divisions was ordered to stop by Mannerheim 24.10.41. (have to read the hexes more throughly![:'(])

So, you mean that the 1942 start line should be at this river ?
That extends it 1 hex to the south, is that it ?

About the borderlands, The problem for me was that there was a lakeside hex that would have blocked the historical assault by 2nd and 19th divisions towards Laatokka (Ladoga). Therefore, I had to give those two extra hexes for Finns, though the real border would be in the middle of hexes. So, since the distance from border to Laatokka in reality was less than 100 km, I decided to include those two hexes.

About the lake hexside, it is not continuous, there is a land hexside in between the 2 northern lake hexside, through wich the historical assault by 2nd and 19th divisions towards Laatokka (Ladoga) could have been driven. We already had a lot of discussions early on about these 2 hexes, whever they should be or not included in the Finnish Borderlands, and we concluded they should, so I think they will stay that way.

Also, are your source map visible as files, or not ? It could be interesting for me to actually see them.

I do not know what is the best for the gameplay, see what you think.

For the N/D 41 scenario, the only difference is the Karhumäki-Poventsa area that was not taken untill 06.12.41 and Hanko which the Russians evacuated, with substancial  losses on the way, by 04.12.41.
Oops, the area (hex) I am talking about is the one north of Ääninen (Onega) where the railroad is and the black line is one hex north of red.
Other than that the 1.1.42 map is accurate for the N/D 41 scenario.

OK, that's what I thought initialy.
So (correct me if I'm wrong) :
Major Edit :
- our M/J 1941 start line should be the same as the M/J 40 start line, that is the peace start line with the Finnish borderlands under Russian control.
- our 1941 start line is OK for the N/D 1941 scenario start except for 1 extra Finnish hex near the white sea western end, and should go down to the river that link Lake Onega to Lake Ladoga.
- our 1942 start line should include that extra rail hex north of Lake Onega.

Thanks for the feedback,
Pertti

No, thanks to you Pertti.
And thanks to the other Finnish & Swedish and Norwegians who contributed A LOT to this area.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung

Thank you for the elaborate answer.

And I don't want to hijack this thread.

I know it's a board game design issue - just being historical wrong in this special case. Maybe someday, after the upcoming Production in Flames, ADG will release a "China in Flames" (with CCP Partisan HQ's, instead of field HQ's, etc.).

I'd also love ADG to release this, along with an European sized China map. [:D]

You might send an email to Harry Rowland, ADG chief designer and director (at adg at spitfire dot com dot au), detailing your ideas & suggestions about that, and hinting at the European map version of the China map that he could take from MWiF.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Pertti
Sorry, I missed that river (Syväri) between the lakes in the map. The Finnish line should be extended next to the river since that was the natural barrier where assault by 17th and 7th divisions was ordered to stop by Mannerheim 24.10.41. (have to read the hexes more throughly![:'(])

Would you know the name of that Syväri river in English ?

Edit : Oops, forget that, it is the Svir, and its name is already on the map.