Start Lines in Scandinavia

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I thought a closer view of the area under discussion might help clarify things.

The Svir river is mostly covered by the borderline between USSR and Karelia.

There are two start times for scenarios in 1941. This screen shot shows ownership just prior to Barbarossa.

The second startline would be for Nov/Dec 1941, just before the attack on Pearl Harbor. I guess the frontlines as of October 31, 1941 would be the best date to choose.

My knowledge on this topic is somewhere between scant and none. So I will rely on you-all to reach a consensus of opinion. The criteria are:
1 - don't change from the WIF FE map unless there is an egregious error, or some other very compelling reason,
2 - physical/historical reality, and
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).

[Anendrue]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

1 - don't change from the WIF FE map unless there is an egregious error, or some other very compelling reason,
2 - physical/historical reality, and
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).

I believe #3 is the most important. Staying massively accurate to historical maps doesn't always translate well into games.

[Update]

Here are two maps that I found in the internett. They should help to clarify the situation a bit.
This first one will show the summer 1941 borders before Continuation war.
The blue line in the map is just to show a new fortification line (Salpa-linja) that was build against Russia from 1940 on.
The dotted black line is the area lost to Soviet Union after Winter War on March 1940.

P.s. I try to avoid using Finnish names for places etc.

[Update]

This second shows the Svir river front late July 1941.

Anyway, if needed I can try to post the actual maps I am using. I have them (along with a lot of other material) on DVD-rom, though they might be too large to fit here. Let me know if you need something more to make your decisions about the Finnish situation.

By the way, I have never played this boardgame, I just downloaded rules from the internett and read the minors section. Therefore, I am not qualified to say anything about balance of play:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).

So, I have no idea what this means. SORRY!

Have a nice day!

Pertti

[Froonp]

1 - don't change from the WIF FE map unless there is an egregious error, or some other very compelling reason,
2 - physical/historical reality, and
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).

I think that I will do the following :

- M/J 40 & M/J 41 start lines : do nothing, as these are the normal borders & Finnish Borderlands.
- N/D 41 start lines : Keep our start line, except for 1 extra Finnish hex near the white sea western end, and that it should go down to the river that link Lake Onega to Lake Ladoga. I'll look at the original WiF FE maps tonight to be sure that this is not too much, especially concerning point 3 above.
- M/J 42 start line : Should include that extra rail hex north of Lake Onega.

Steve, can you confirm a point to me.
Is the MWiF "1941" start line the N/D 41 start line, or the M/J 41 start line ? At least for Finland / Karelia.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

1 - don't change from the WIF FE map unless there is an egregious error, or some other very compelling reason,
2 - physical/historical reality, and
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).

I think that I will do the following :

- M/J 40 & M/J 41 start lines : do nothing, as these are the normal borders & Finnish Borderlands.
- N/D 41 start lines : Keep our start line, except for 1 extra Finnish hex near the white sea western end, and that it should go down to the river that link Lake Onega to Lake Ladoga. I'll look at the original WiF FE maps tonight to be sure that this is not too much, especially concerning point 3 above.
- M/J 42 start line : Should include that extra rail hex north of Lake Onega.

Steve, can you confirm a point to me.
Is the MWiF "1941" start line the N/D 41 start line, or the M/J 41 start line ? At least for Finland / Karelia.

As you said, the May/June start line (for scenarios Barbarossa and Lebensraum) are the country borders et al, so nothing special has to be done - I am assuming the borders are defined correctly. The program does not use the Alternative Control file in Europe for those scenarios.

The other scenarios that start in 1941 are for Nov/Dec (Day of Infamy and Waking Giant). The main concern with their start lines are for USSR vs. Axis in Europe since those battlelines changed a lot since May/June.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

1 - don't change from the WIF FE map unless there is an egregious error, or some other very compelling reason,
2 - physical/historical reality, and
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).

I think that I will do the following :

- M/J 40 & M/J 41 start lines : do nothing, as these are the normal borders & Finnish Borderlands.
- N/D 41 start lines : Keep our start line, except for 1 extra Finnish hex near the white sea western end, and that it should go down to the river that link Lake Onega to Lake Ladoga. I'll look at the original WiF FE maps tonight to be sure that this is not too much, especially concerning point 3 above.
- M/J 42 start line : Should include that extra rail hex north of Lake Onega.

OK, I've looked at the WiF FE maps.
Changing the 1941, 1942 or later start line so that the area controlled by Finland goes down to the Svir river would go too far, as this area is still Russian on the WiF FE maps.
So, in virtue of point 1 from Steve above, with which I agree completely, I think it is better not to change that.
Even if not changing that, it would be easy for the German player if interested, to setup Finnish units there, and push to the historical start line in 1 impulse, so I think that this is not a big deal.

So, the projected changes are :
- 1941 (N/D) start lines : 1 extra Finnish hex near the white sea western end.
- 1942 (M/J) start line : 1 extra rail hex north of Lake Onega.

Would that fits better ?