F7F wrongly classified as carrier fighter!!!

[el cid again]

Turns out that the F7F, in its WWII forms, never served as a carrier fighter plane. It was not until the F7F-4 that the plane was certified for carrier operations - in the Korean War. So all forms of WITP have this wrong.

The majority of aircraft build during the war served as night fighters - based on land - and they were in the USMC.

This permits us to solve a problem we have had in RHS: we created a night fighter version of the TBF - but had to restrict it to land use because of lack of slots. Now - by swapping slots - we can let the F7F become a landplane - and the TBF night fighter variant may go to sea. Specifically, that lets VTN41 and VTN90 serve with TBF night fighters. These squadrons teamed with F6F night fighters on the same carrier - and together each squadron pair outfitted a specialized night fighter CVL. [We had let the F6F serve in place of the TFB in the VTN squadrons].

Candidates to use the F7F-1N and -2N are VMF(N)533 to 543. Not all these units did operate the aircraft, but they could have done. The first two - one with Ventura night fighters and one with the early F4U night fighters - are set to upgrade to F6F night fighters (presumably to make them more effective: the F6F was adopted as the standard night fighter). The rest, starting with F6Fs, are now set to upgrade to F7F: if enough become available (because the war lasts long enough), they will.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Turns out that the F7F, in its WWII forms, never served as a carrier fighter plane. It was not until the F7F-4 that the plane was certified for carrier operations - in the Korean War. So all forms of WITP have this wrong.

Except for those who chose to include the Tigercat as a carrier-capable aircraft, in a what-if set-up...

[el cid again]

Well - since it could not safely land - particularly with one engine out (unstable) - it had a defective tail hook design - and since it took years to fix these issues - I guess it would have to be "what if" in a non-strictly historical scenario. Perhaps people didn't know that - I certainly did not and always thought it was a regular carrier fighter in WWII. I choose to fix this problem in all RHS scenarios - even the non-strictly historical ones - because it really could not operate from a carrier - and because I need a carrier slot anyway. This way we get to have the TBF night fighter - which I don't think anyone else - as a carrier capable aircraft. The only truly effective night fighter units were on the dedicated CVLs - because everything else was just dribblets probably - and it would be nice to have both aircraft types on those ships. Technically - the two types needed each other - so I want to have them both.

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, I knew that the Tigercat was only operated by USMC squadrons from land bases during the war, but I still chose to put it in as carrier-capable...[:)]

[JWE]

This is the big one, yeah?? twin engines single tail?? about same size as a P-38??

Golly, what a beautiful airplane!!

What I really like, and if you guys could find some way to fake them in I would love it, is the F8F Bearcat. That little sweety had 'line' and 'proportion'; looked almost Japanese in her artistic perfection. My favorite of all US wartime designs.

Let's declare a moratorium on physics, and run the game to '45-'46 on props. Damn!!! the stuff you can do with below-Mach aerodynamics. Shoulda lived in a different decade. Anyway, Ciao.

[DuckofTindalos]

I've certainly got the Bearcat, and it's in CHS as well. Might show up later elsewhere...[;)]

[JWE]

Yeow !!! Bring her on!! Love that plane!!

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, I knew that the Tigercat was only operated by USMC squadrons from land bases during the war, but I still chose to put it in as carrier-capable...[:)]

My general principle for players - and I think we modders should be bound by it - is "if they would not do it IRL, don't do it. And the extreme case is "if they could not do it IRL, don't do it."

I am very open minded about "commanders" (players) and "planners" (modders) making different choices - but how can you make a choice that isn't possible?

There were technologies that were not developed in time for the war. If we go down the road that does not count, why not put late war planes on 1941 carriers? Where do we draw the line?

We are only pushing electrons. Our users are only trying to have fun. So there is no inherent reason not to do whatever people want to do? We could have a "Final Countdown" game (a US CVN at Pearl Harbor if I got the movie name right) - if players wanted that. But it appears to me that most want either strict attention to history, or reasonable alternatives to history that were actually possible. This thread is devoted to both sets of designers - and clearly anyone not so bounded need not worry about anything whatever.

OTH we ALL had this plane in as "carrier capable" - it is in the current issue of RHS and it got there from CHS by inheritance. And it got there from Matrix by inheritance. We didn't know it was not right - which is why the post. If you knew - at least you made a conscious decision. I wanted those who didn't know to have the same option.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JWE

This is the big one, yeah?? twin engines single tail?? about same size as a P-38??

Golly, what a beautiful airplane!!

What I really like, and if you guys could find some way to fake them in I would love it, is the F8F Bearcat. That little sweety had 'line' and 'proportion'; looked almost Japanese in her artistic perfection. My favorite of all US wartime designs.

Let's declare a moratorium on physics, and run the game to '45-'46 on props. Damn!!! the stuff you can do with below-Mach aerodynamics. Shoulda lived in a different decade. Anyway, Ciao.

The Bearcat is certainly in RHS, and that by inheritance from CHS - which seems to have introduced it. We also have night fighter versions of F4U, F6F and TBF in RHS - all carrier capable - and F7F - which is land only but in night fighter form. Instead of a torpedo, it carries 2 1000 pound bombs as an intruder. It probably will win a fight with most fighters in the daytime as well. The US Navy lead test pilot said "it is the best fighter I ever flew".

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, I knew that the Tigercat was only operated by USMC squadrons from land bases during the war, but I still chose to put it in as carrier-capable...[:)]

My general principle for players - and I think we modders should be bound by it - is "if they would not do it IRL, don't do it. And the extreme case is "if they could not do it IRL, don't do it."

I am very open minded about "commanders" (players) and "planners" (modders) making different choices - but how can you make a choice that isn't possible?

There were technologies that were not developed in time for the war. If we go down the road that does not count, why not put late war planes on 1941 carriers? Where do we draw the line?

We are only pushing electrons. Our users are only trying to have fun. So there is no inherent reason not to do whatever people want to do? We could have a "Final Countdown" game (a US CVN at Pearl Harbor if I got the movie name right) - if players wanted that. But it appears to me that most want either strict attention to history, or reasonable alternatives to history that were actually possible. This thread is devoted to both sets of designers - and clearly anyone not so bounded need not worry about anything whatever.

OTH we ALL had this plane in as "carrier capable" - it is in the current issue of RHS and it got there from CHS by inheritance. And it got there from Matrix by inheritance. We didn't know it was not right - which is why the post. If you knew - at least you made a conscious decision. I wanted those who didn't know to have the same option.

Got there from Matrix? It's never been in any of the stock scenarios.

Anyway, you and I attack the issue of modding under entirely separate paradigms, Sid. Neither of us has a monopoly on The Truth in this regard, and there's room for the both of us.

That being said, I'll still continue to call you out when I believe you're making, shall we say, non-standard statements. However, I will no longer explode on them as before; that's not for your sake, or for anybody else's except my own. It's bad for my blood pressure.

As for the Bearcat, the first operational squadron was en route to the war zone aboard the USS Langley when the Japanese surrendered.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
OTH we ALL had this plane in as "carrier capable" - it is in the current issue of RHS and it got there from CHS by inheritance. And it got there from Matrix by inheritance. We didn't know it was not right - which is why the post. If you knew - at least you made a conscious decision. I wanted those who didn't know to have the same option.

Actually, There is no F7F in the stock scenarios. Also, it is not a carrier capable aircraft in CHS.

Andrew

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, I knew that the Tigercat was only operated by USMC squadrons from land bases during the war, but I still chose to put it in as carrier-capable...[:)]

My general principle for players - and I think we modders should be bound by it - is "if they would not do it IRL, don't do it. And the extreme case is "if they could not do it IRL, don't do it."

I am very open minded about "commanders" (players) and "planners" (modders) making different choices - but how can you make a choice that isn't possible?

There were technologies that were not developed in time for the war. If we go down the road that does not count, why not put late war planes on 1941 carriers? Where do we draw the line?

We are only pushing electrons. Our users are only trying to have fun. So there is no inherent reason not to do whatever people want to do? We could have a "Final Countdown" game (a US CVN at Pearl Harbor if I got the movie name right) - if players wanted that. But it appears to me that most want either strict attention to history, or reasonable alternatives to history that were actually possible. This thread is devoted to both sets of designers - and clearly anyone not so bounded need not worry about anything whatever.

OTH we ALL had this plane in as "carrier capable" - it is in the current issue of RHS and it got there from CHS by inheritance. And it got there from Matrix by inheritance. We didn't know it was not right - which is why the post. If you knew - at least you made a conscious decision. I wanted those who didn't know to have the same option.

Got there from Matrix? It's never been in any of the stock scenarios.

Anyway, you and I attack the issue of modding under entirely separate paradigms, Sid. Neither of us has a monopoly on The Truth in this regard, and there's room for the both of us.

That being said, I'll still continue to call you out when I believe you're making, shall we say, non-standard statements. However, I will no longer explode on them as before; that's not for your sake, or for anybody else's except my own. It's bad for my blood pressure.

As for the Bearcat, the first operational squadron was en route to the war zone aboard the USS Langley when the Japanese surrendered.

I think it is wise to stay healthy - particularly over recreational matters.

I regret you have not elected to be civil for reasons of a more general nature - because that would be good for you and all the rest of us for different reasons - and because it implies you have not yet come to terms with me for who I am. I note in particular the lack of an apology or retraction for personal attacks - or for breaking the rules of the forum - or for breaking specific agreements you have made with individuals.
I still have hope for you, however.

Thank you for the information about the Bearcat. [I do not find being civil - even to hostile people - is a bad thing. Indeed, USMC military police training is that you get better behavior even from the most violent people if you are polite to them.]

I may regret this - but I do not think different is necessairily wrong. In spite of that, I cannot imagine how one can justify putting something in a sim that was not then possible to do. How do you do that?

[DuckofTindalos]

Here's the relevant quote from the documentation for my mod:

The primary “design philosophy” (such as it is), is best summed up in the idea that I’ve been
interested in putting as many big, shiny toys into the mod as possible. I like to think that all of them
are more or less realistic, i.e. at least on the level of “could-have-been”, so there are no Super-
Duper-Borg-Cube-Spaceship-Yamatos. However, it is inevitable that somebody will say, “that’s
unrealistic!!!”, and call me a fanboy of either side. That is what it is.

I make no apologies for my choices; they’re for fun and reflecting the fact that WitP is a game to
me. Ultra-realism is good, but when I finally got to grips with the eccentricities of the WitP editor, I
realised that I could do whatever I wanted with it. There was no point in even attempting to create
something similar to CHS: I’m certainly not knowledgeable enough to do it, and that particular
niche in the market has already been comprehensively filled.

Mine is a "light" mod; I've added a lot of stuff, removed a lot of stuff, and moved a lot of things around, but it's still basically stock WitP. I see no need to break the technical envelope.

[DuckofTindalos]

BTW, the first Bearcat squadron was VF-19.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Here's the relevant quote from the documentation for my mod:

The primary “design philosophy” (such as it is), is best summed up in the idea that I’ve been
interested in putting as many big, shiny toys into the mod as possible. I like to think that all of them
are more or less realistic, i.e. at least on the level of “could-have-been”, so there are no Super-
Duper-Borg-Cube-Spaceship-Yamatos. However, it is inevitable that somebody will say, “that’s
unrealistic!!!”, and call me a fanboy of either side. That is what it is.

I make no apologies for my choices; they’re for fun and reflecting the fact that WitP is a game to
me. Ultra-realism is good, but when I finally got to grips with the eccentricities of the WitP editor, I
realised that I could do whatever I wanted with it. There was no point in even attempting to create
something similar to CHS: I’m certainly not knowledgeable enough to do it, and that particular
niche in the market has already been comprehensively filled.

Mine is a "light" mod; I've added a lot of stuff, removed a lot of stuff, and moved a lot of things around, but it's still basically stock WitP. I see no need to break the technical envelope.

Outstanding explanation. Well phrased. Thanks.

[DuckofTindalos]

My next project will probably be the AD-1 Skyraider. The prototype flew in March 1945, and if the war had dragged on into an invasion of Japan, it's not at all inconceivable that it would have seen action.

Got the side, but the tops will take a bit longer: