U-boats ...

[SeaMonkey]

Well no!  And then again maybe yes!   Do you know about the new "crash dive" sequence in which a successful dive allows the sub to steal away...baby...steal away(sorry about the LZ).
 
My understanding that the well known "corralling" technique will not work if a sub makes an emergency crash dive and silently evades the surface fleet to live another day.
 
Of course those new destroyers maybe aptly successful in uncovering the subs' ruse, but only the destroyers have the capability.
 
It will take quite a few of those babies to corral a sub in the open ocean.

[firepowerjohan]

Thre is one very important aspect about the subs, you have to pick a location where it is likley not many Allied ships will reach you on one turn near edges of map. If you have 4-5 subs and say strike a convoy in a distant place there is often only 1-2 ships that can reach you and you can attack with some Subs and keep some subs hidden next to them so when the Allies comes in they will be running into  surprise attack. Sure, you get some losses but since attacker fires first you will get much whack out of Subs.

For example
Sub strength 10 hidden
Allied DD strenth 10

DD comes in, move on Sub hex gets surprise attacked. Sub fires, damage the DD down to 6. DD will then fire back with strenth 6 and also reduced efficiency so having many subs and keep them protecting each other is beneficial.

There are 3 edges on map, NW corner, W edge and South edge westy of Africa. Due to this fact, Allies are spread out on 3 locations while you can use all your Subs in one large pack, use it to your adfvantage.

If you ar using 2 subs between New Foundland and England in the centre of the map making 2 attacks on Convoy you are saking for trouble because often 3-5 Allied ships witll be within reach. Subs are tricky to learn and with a reduced cost for them and some experience you can make them pay off

Their max damage is 13 and they Cost 70 but also rememebr that they will infclit on enemy as well so it is 13+cost for enemy to repair if you are that unlucky your Sub gets sunk right away.

If Allies are in Mediterranean with their ships, even easier to find locations for your Sub packs where sometimes Allies cannot even counter with risk of being sunk themselves.

If Subs will cost 60 in next patch then a 13 payoff per turn is quite much though [:)]
Also considering making BB and Strat.Bomber -5 cheaper

[IainMcNeil]

Giving subs a % chance to move 1 hex randomly before an attack might be quite nice but does require code changes and could introduce bugs.
 
The simple way to tweak it is to make subs much tougher to kill but do less damage to represent their evasion techniques. This can be by increasing their survivrability or reducing attack values against them, and reducing their naval attack value. This way it becomes a war of attrition rather than dead/not dead which often seems to be the result at the moment.
 
It might require price tweaking to keep it balanced, probably making subs more expensive.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Irish Guards

Well ... I have had my subs surrounded in 1 turn by attacking allied fleets ... Probably my own fault ... but ... [:'(]
I guess what I would really like to know ... Is anyone building subs or fleet consistently with the Axis .. and tech ???? 1 or 2 naval labs for the Axis ...
I am finding there is not much naval war in many games ..... [X(]
IG

And to think I was lambasted for suggesting early on that there is not much to be gained by pursuing the naval war in this game. Nice to see that others are finally coming around to my point of view.

[Irish Guards]

Sweet Jesus, a completely coherent analysis from IDG!

What a riot ... I try not to be to clear .. Don't want to give to much away in the scope or scheme .. You know what I mean ... [:'(]

Swine brethren ... lol ... [&o]

Thx for the WiF Optional rules ... wow .. there's tons ...
I think these guys should have stuck to WiF .. Original Edition .. Then broad and firm ....
And be nice or nay lasagna for the family this weekend ... [;)]
IG

[Irish Guards]

Hey FPJ ... I think you are forgeting the fact that when the DD or BB or CV finds a hidden sub ..
Shock is the first part of the combat .. or am I wrong in this assumption .... [&:]

So the incoming swine allied 1939 ASW UK BB's run into the vaunted German U-boaten which are submerged ... they suprise the U-boat ..[;)]
So as U-boats .. have no shock ... why I have no idea .. Nay my game ... There eff % is allready hit before they get off a spread of photon torps ..
Am I missing something here ...
Oh Dear .. That's my outloud voice again .. [X(]
IG

[firepowerjohan]

When you run into a insible Sub, the surprise attack means the sub will be the attacker and only attacker will use shock value.

Running some tests with it, I find that if a sub attacks a ship then most likely the ship will suffer more while if the ship attacks then the sub will likely suffer more as should be. Of course in the example I have compared units of roughly same combat values.

NORMAL COMBAT:
In normal combat, attacker first use its shock attack value to reduce defender effectiveness, Then defender fires first so the attacker is losing both strength and efficiency until they can fire back. So in fact if you have a high combat value and are defending then your taken casualty will be affected by it also sine you will hurt the attacker before he can fire back. Highly realistic. The shock phase means that for example a armour unit with high shock value can stun the defender making it more likely to retreat but also weakening the defenders fire upon the attacker which means the attacker will have more firepower on phase 3 of the combat

phase 1 : Attacker shock upon defender
phase 2 : defender fire
phase 3 : attacker fire


Now the difference to this is that

COMBAT BETWEEN 2 NAVAL UNITS:
phase 1 : attacker fire
phase 2 : defender fire

So in pure sea battles attacking pays off and even a equal odds means the attacker has an advantage



COMBAT BETWEEN 2 AIR STRIKING UNITS:
With air striking means Air units or Carrier because they will always fight each other in the air without any terrain bonuses.

Here
Phase 1 : Both attacker and defender fire simultaneously

So here attacker and defender does not mean anything to the outcome and neither attacker or defender has any distinct advantage.

[Irish Guards]

Exactly .. Subs have 0 shock .. even when they suprise a Naval unit or even a convoy ...
So a sub suprises a CV .. and the CV is nay shocked .. [&:]
When convoys are hit they are still 100 % effeciency ... And damage is equal if attacking the convoy as opposed to suprising ...
When this comes to a naval engagement ... say a DD runs into a hidden sub its the same as if you are just attacking a DD .. Of course the sub should attack first .. almost always .. Especially in the early war years .. Well this is usually a 4:8 attack or some such .. And this is before any labs come into play ...

I actually think the best use of subs is to delay some of the larger convoys 250 PP or so ..
you might loose a sub or 2 over a few turns .. but .. If you can delay the Russians at critical times then it's worthwhile ..

Which actually brings me to the conclusion that this is the intention .. [;)]
If thats the case then I believe that if there are only 3 locations on the board that convoys stem from .. nay sure .. Don't play Allies often ....
Increase the locations of where the convoys are generated .. but .. If there is a murmansk convoy on route to Russia .. which is about where Greenland should be .. [:-]
And this convoy is delayed .. Another convoy from the same location will not be generated from the start location until that convoy reaches Greenland .. Ahh Russia .. [:D]
It will still allow another Russian convoy to be generated .. just not from the same starting point .... Means multiple convoys are still on board ....
IG

[SeaMonkey]

OK Johann, for further thought into the next edition, think about incorporating a "pass-through" feature.

The idea being to allow for naval opponents to actually miss each other in a common sea hex.  This will introduce, "The Search" feature.

With the large areas represented by CEaW sea hexes it was not uncommon for foes to absolutely not be aware of each other in the same zone...like two ships passing in the night.

Emphasis with successful searching then can be upgraded with the advent of tech levels and degraded with weather conditions to continue the cat and mouse approach that should be inherent into naval actions.

Just like the present model, unless you have overwhelming strength in proximity, first to be found...first to drown.

Enhancing the nerve wracking feature of imminent discovery increases the in game excitement, the anticipation of combat, the unknown of the conclusion of your chosen path (luck factor)weighing down what you thought was supreme confidence.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

OK Johann, for further thought into the next edition, think about incorporating a "pass-through" feature.

The idea being to allow for naval opponents to actually miss each other in a common sea hex.  This will introduce, "The Search" feature.

With the large areas represented by CEaW sea hexes it was not uncommon for foes to absolutely not be aware of each other in the same zone...like two ships passing in the night.

Emphasis with successful searching then can be upgraded with the advent of tech levels and degraded with weather conditions to continue the cat and mouse approach that should be inherent into naval actions.

Just like the present model, unless you have overwhelming strength in proximity, first to be found...first to drown.

Enhancing the nerve wracking feature of imminent discovery increases the in game excitement, the anticipation of combat, the unknown of the conclusion of your chosen path (luck factor)weighing down what you thought was supreme confidence.

and while you're at it think about giving subs a shock attack...after all a surprise submarine attack (99.99% of all submarine attacks) should be ALL about shock. The shock value should be greater than the attack value, far, far greater.

[Bossy573]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

SC2 is only marginally different - once a sub is located it gets hammered. teh difference is that subs attack convoy routes instead of convoys themselves, so you don't know where on the route the sub is.

If anything, an effective sea campaign is more difficult in SC2. But, the idea of penalizing the Allies in a general way for having subs in the shipping lanes does have merit. It makes economic warfare (theoretically) viable.

I guess the thing to remember is that by 1943, the Allies had a hammer lock on the Atlantic anyway. So tinkering with the subs to make them more powerful indeed travels a slippery slope as it could have the effect of having super-subs running amok and giving the Allies no chance.

I would suggest a closer look at the naval tech tree and making advances by one side or another more potent. The war at sea did seem to turn on better tactics and technology. Perhaps give convoys built in defenses at a cost, etc.

[Major Victory]

The sub/convoy system works quite well in my opinion if used correctly, you have a big map with multiple areas to hide and attack from. I don;t think the idea is to outright destroy every convoy, but to peck away and retreat etc.

By the time any 1 sub is destroyed, you will hopefully have attritioned enough build points to justify the loss, or if the allies pours massive builds into ships/tech, then you accomplish your goal anyway. (no land units or air elsewhere)

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: Major Victory

By the time any 1 sub is destroyed, you will hopefully have attritioned enough build points to justify the loss,

The thing is its not possible because the allied naval counterattack will badly damage or destroy the sub immedaintly.
-

[firepowerjohan]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: Major Victory

By the time any 1 sub is destroyed, you will hopefully have attritioned enough build points to justify the loss,

The thing is its not possible because the allied naval counterattack will badly damage or destroy the sub immedaintly.
-

Depends where you are attacking. The Atlantic is large so it is impossible to have all Allied navy around every spot on edges of map. But against the AI if AI has handicap then they will have more navy than in human vs human games and it will then also become more difficult to find spots with weak Allied escorting.

[JudgeDredd]

I'm not sure I follow people on the "placement" of subs?

If you position your subs at the extremes of the map (as I think is being suggested) then how are you meant to destroy anything.

Also, it was mentioned that you should attack out of reach of naval power....the problem there seems to be (from the games I've played) that my subs always get attacked. Is there a specific "row/column" of hexes that are "out of range"?

Here's what happens whenever I attac with subs:

• attack with sub
• immediately on allied turn I am surrounded and destroyed
• if I'm not destroyed, I move away, but I am immediately found again (I think, if memory serves)

So I just simply do not see the use of them for the cost in resources and time.

IIRC Germany starts with 2? subs...whenever I play (and I've always played as Germany) I send the ubs out to attack convoys and they die. When they die, that's my sub campaign over.

Now that might just be bad gaming strategy (I am most definitely not a mini Patton), but because of their apparent lack of use and high resource cost, I see little point in taking the strategy further.

I'm going to start a game tonight and put my main effort into the navy (subs) and see what happens. I expect it won't be too different...I may have more subs (but only if I hold them in harbour until I have enough for a pack...so they'll be hold up for several months), but they'll still get surrounded and destroyed over time...ultimately I'll lose the battle for the atlantic AND the ground war.

How's that for a pessimistic outlook.

On another note, who has successfully (as Germany) employed a "wolfpack" sub doctrine and did well from it and how did you do well?

[firepowerjohan]

In 1939 , Allies have also the french navy so it is very hard with just 2 subs. Later on after the fall of France when you have built up 4-5 Subs, say you sail to the South Atlantic and see a convoy size 20 show up, you sink it with 3 subs and keep 2 subs adjacent and invisible. Now, any Allied navy in the North or Mid section of Atlantic cannot reach the south Atlantic in one turn so normally if they have 8 ships maybe 2 can reach you. Likely one of them will run into surprise attack and the second might be able seriously hurt one Sub but hardly sink it, unless the Allies have 8 destroyers but that should be impossible since they only start with 1 destroyer rest of them are BB or Carrier and Subs are doing ok against anything else than destroyers.

Map is 150x72 and ships normally move like 18 hexes so if you are at row 60 then ships must be at 42-72 to reach in one turn. Row 42 is the north of Spain so a majorrity of Navy should not be south of that at leist not before your strike. Most ppl that get destroyed are striking in the centre of the map between New Foundland and Ireland and there often 3-4 Allied ships can reach you, use the areas near NW edge, W edge and S edge of map and try to have at leist 3 but hopefully 4-5 subs before you try to get serious about the war in the Atlantic [;)]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: Major Victory

By the time any 1 sub is destroyed, you will hopefully have attritioned enough build points to justify the loss,

The thing is its not possible because the allied naval counterattack will badly damage or destroy the sub immedaintly.
-

Depends where you are attacking. The Atlantic is large so it is impossible to have all Allied navy around every spot on edges of map. But against the AI if AI has handicap then they will have more navy than in human vs human games and it will then also become more difficult to find spots with weak Allied escorting.

A design that requires you to hang out around the edge of the map to avoid escorts also means you are avoiding the convoys and since every move of the sub drains your strategic oil reserves the very act of moving to the edge of the map is counterproductive from the get go.

FPJ you need to pull your head out of the sand on this one, admit it is poorly designed, and get one board with the people who are telling you it needs revamping. The majority of the people posting in this thread have been some of your biggest suporters. Please demonstrate the presence of mind to listen to them. I can appreciate if you don't want to listen to me or Targul, but the Judge....come on! He is spot on with his last post and it is exactly what I was saying right after the game's release.

[JudgeDredd]

Will give it a go Johan...thx

FWIW I am one of those that try to attack in mid-atlantic...but that's generally because that's where the convoys are, is it not? Surely I have to venture into the shipping lanes of mid-atlantic to get the convoys, regardless of where I sit my subs prior to/post attack?

[firepowerjohan]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Will give it a go Johan...thx

FWIW I am one of those that try to attack in mid-atlantic...but that's generally because that's where the convoys are, is it not? Surely I have to venture into the shipping lanes of mid-atlantic to get the convoys, regardless of where I sit my subs prior to/post attack?

try bieng the Allies and you will see that your convoys always emerge in the edge of map. Having a few subs placed can cover alot of area and enable you to see when they appear. Being idle does not use up oil also.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

In 1939 , Allies have also the french navy so it is very hard with just 2 subs. Later on after the fall of France when you have built up 4-5 Subs, say you sail to the South Atlantic and see a convoy size 20 show up, you sink it with 3 subs and keep 2 subs adjacent and invisible. Now, any Allied navy in the North or Mid section of Atlantic cannot reach the south Atlantic in one turn so normally if they have 8 ships maybe 2 can reach you. Likely one of them will run into surprise attack and the second might be able seriously hurt one Sub but hardly sink it, unless the Allies have 8 destroyers but that should be impossible since they only start with 1 destroyer rest of them are BB or Carrier and Subs are doing ok against anything else than destroyers.

Map is 150x72 and ships normally move like 18 hexes so if you are at row 60 then ships must be at 42-72 to reach in one turn. Row 42 is the north of Spain so a majorrity of Navy should not be south of that at leist not before your strike. Most ppl that get destroyed are striking in the centre of the map between New Foundland and Ireland and there often 3-4 Allied ships can reach you, use the areas near NW edge, W edge and S edge of map and try to have at leist 3 but hopefully 4-5 subs before you try to get serious about the war in the Atlantic [;)]

Methinks you need to study some of thoes WWII atlas books with the maps full of little dots representing the locations of uboat attacks.