Allied Production

[Historiker]

Is it possible to add that much factories to the game, that the whole allied production is undertaken by them? That would avoid the problem that obsolete AC still get produced and still can get used in big numbers.

[el cid again]

Well - yes - but

1) Those factories presumably require HI points
2) Those HI points presumbaly require resource points and oil and manpower
3) Those factories, the HI factories, the resource centers, oil centers and manpower centers all might be damaged by enemy action

At least one mod has done this. I have considered doing it - putting industry at United States and Canada (and Krasnyarsk and Aden) like I have done at New Orleans. It is tricky.

A big problem is that this industry would generate massive amounts of supply points and fuel, and then the Allies will have way too much - and be more invincible than they are - or were. Supply sinks can only eat so many supply points - and I don't have a good way to eat fuel points. Also, if we put in the manpower, oil and resources to feed those plants, then there is no reason to import resources or oil from the Far East (which is false - rubber, tin, chromium, antimony - a host of things were critical - and oil is always valuable - At New Orleans I put a shortage of resources - so after the stocks are used up - if you are not importing - it will stop producing supplies, fuel and HI points. I think we want to give the Allies reasons to use their ships economically - or we go back to "AKs to burn" issues - and that means operations and locations lose their contextual significance).

So it is yes - but it is not exactly without consequences.

genuch?

[Historiker]

You may order the ressources and oil to emerge in the base without a ressource center. When the HI is inland, it also doesn't produce fuel.

I wouldn't add the production on map to have it destroyable, I would much more prefere that no more B-17E come when the next series is out etc.

As far as I know, the allies don't need manpower execept for theri HI. Their new squads don't consume manpower, right? So why not simply adding several millions of manpower (or how much is needed to fit the production) from the beginning?
Doing this, the obsolete planes finally wouldn't appear any longer.

I'm going to play a PBEM against a RL friend and we're thinking about the HRs. Eben the old B-17D still appear until the end of the war and even if they aren't the best, they still carry a nice bombload and have a great range. So when we play with full PDU (no "no 2e to 4e" rule), he may slowly upgrade more and more squads to 4e by using planes historically no longer under production... Some with fighters. Why should Hurricanes still appear in 45?

One may well put all the facilitys to the united states hex, even the soviet ones, as the russian factories were far away like the british.

[Big B]

Hi,

Yes, as el cid noted above you can, and I did.
I put most all US Aircraft production on map in the USA, so as to not produce obsolete aircraft - as you were thinking.

ORIGINAL: Historiker

You may order the ressources and oil to emerge in the base without a ressource center. When the HI is inland, it also doesn't produce fuel.

I wouldn't add the production on map to have it destroyable, I would much more prefere that no more B-17E come when the next series is out etc.

As far as I know, the allies don't need manpower execept for theri HI. Their new squads don't consume manpower, right? So why not simply adding several millions of manpower (or how much is needed to fit the production) from the beginning?
Doing this, the obsolete planes finally wouldn't appear any longer.

I'm going to play a PBEM against a RL friend and we're thinking about the HRs. Eben the old B-17D still appear until the end of the war and even if they aren't the best, they still carry a nice bombload and have a great range. So when we play with full PDU (no "no 2e to 4e" rule), he may slowly upgrade more and more squads to 4e by using planes historically no longer under production... Some with fighters. Why should Hurricanes still appear in 45?

One may well put all the facilitys to the united states hex, even the soviet ones, as the russian factories were far away like the british.

Yes, the USA produces much more supply, fuel, and oil now - but I don't see this as a problem.
A player asked about this effect, and I explained to him that - it does not make the Allies too powerful, let me explain:

The USA produced most of the worlds oil at the time - so that is ok.
The USA will produce tons of supply.... but not a single extra squad, gun, ship, etc - because that is still accomplished only by pre-assigned production rates.
The supply generated is essentially gasoline, bullets, and food - which even in 1941 - the USA produced massive amounts. But in game terms, the Allied player still has to ship their supply, fuel, and oil overseas to make it count - and in this regard the USA is in no better shape than stock.
So I don't see any problem with the 'arsenal of democracy' being an industrial super-giant (it was)...because the game will not turn this into production of extra ships, troops, guns, units, etc..nor will any of the above be produced any quicker than in stock either - which would upset the balance of the game.

B

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Well - yes - but

1) Those factories presumably require HI points
2) Those HI points presumbaly require resource points and oil and manpower
3) Those factories, the HI factories, the resource centers, oil centers and manpower centers all might be damaged by enemy action

At least one mod has done this. I have considered doing it - putting industry at United States and Canada (and Krasnyarsk and Aden) like I have done at New Orleans. It is tricky.

A big problem is that this industry would generate massive amounts of supply points and fuel, and then the Allies will have way too much - and be more invincible than they are - or were. Supply sinks can only eat so many supply points - and I don't have a good way to eat fuel points. Also, if we put in the manpower, oil and resources to feed those plants, then there is no reason to import resources or oil from the Far East (which is false - rubber, tin, chromium, antimony - a host of things were critical - and oil is always valuable - At New Orleans I put a shortage of resources - so after the stocks are used up - if you are not importing - it will stop producing supplies, fuel and HI points. I think we want to give the Allies reasons to use their ships economically - or we go back to "AKs to burn" issues - and that means operations and locations lose their contextual significance).

So it is yes - but it is not exactly without consequences.

genuch?

[VSWG]

You could create a base "US Industry" in the very top right corner of the map which produces a massive amount of oil, resources and heavy industry. The HI points will be then available for all Allied factories, but the supply and fuel would simply stockpile in this far away base.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

You could create a base "US Industry" in the very top right corner of the map which produces a massive amount of oil, resources and heavy industry. The HI points will be then available for all Allied factories, but the supply and fuel would simply stockpile in this far away base.

That is essentially what I did, three bases deep in the USA, named USA North,Central,and South.

I could have done the same for the Brits and Soviets, but I haven't done so yet.

[Historiker]

With the British it might make sense, as some planes were assembled by Hindustan Aircraft, which shall be possible to bomb. If the rest of the British Industry will be in Aden and within bomber range it might be ok, too - as the British reinforcements might be sunk by german and japanese subs/AC as well as Germany might bomb it's industry... - One may think about that...

The Soviets shouldn't produce in Russia, as most of their Industry shall be to far away to bomb it - or did they have any AC-Factories in eastern Siberia? I'I have no access to my library at home, so I can't answer this atm.

[Historiker]

And one more thing:
As I have no experience in modding this, might there be someone who adds the allied production on a map of CHS and RHS? I'm sure I'm not the only  one interested in this.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

You may order the ressources and oil to emerge in the base without a ressource center. When the HI is inland, it also doesn't produce fuel.

REPLY: the first part is correct. Generally I don't think about that - but at the map edge it does not present a problem - I imagine it represents "off map stuff arriving on the map edge." But the second part isn't: you need HI centers to turn those resources and oil into HI points - or you cannot "fuel" the aviation factories - which want a uniform 18 HI points per aircraft.


I wouldn't add the production on map to have it destroyable, I would much more prefere that no more B-17E come when the next series is out etc.

REPLY: It depends on the aircraft: B-24E were very late - by the time they were able to START production, it was "almost obsolete" - and they were built in large numbers into the time frame of the G series. [E was a Ford copy of the D, and it was not only built by Ford directly at Willow Run, the world's second largest building after Boeing Renton, Ford also supplied kits to three other companies: so this was a really big production deal - and it was NOT replaced by the later model for a long time.] But for a crude simple system, yes - that is how it works - and generally it is correct. As Japan I find it awful not to be able to get an older aircraft (if you order it into production it automatically switches back anyway - often you cannot keep units at strength - nor enough production of the later model - because in Japan there is the engine limit issue messing with you).

As far as I know, the allies don't need manpower execept for theri HI. Their new squads don't consume manpower, right? So why not simply adding several millions of manpower (or how much is needed to fit the production) from the beginning?
Doing this, the obsolete planes finally wouldn't appear any longer.

REPLY: I looked it up: manpower is not required by HI - but neither does it produce HI points. It should be required to produce land units - and if it isn't I fail to see why they exist at all? Or the "Allied production" button? But we don't need to add manpower - it will just eat resources points.


I'm going to play a PBEM against a RL friend and we're thinking about the HRs. Eben the old B-17D still appear until the end of the war and even if they aren't the best, they still carry a nice bombload and have a great range. So when we play with full PDU (no "no 2e to 4e" rule), he may slowly upgrade more and more squads to 4e by using planes historically no longer under production... Some with fighters. Why should Hurricanes still appear in 45?


REPLY: Sometimes old planes continue - even after their replacements are stopped in production! Consider the Stringbag, and it isn't alone. Ki-49 didn't ever replace Ki-21 either, although designed for that. I would rather players decide - but for the Allies that isn't practical in this system. However, in RHS it won't happen to B-17s: all are produced in Washington or California - and they WILL upgrade to newer types.

One may well put all the facilitys to the united states hex, even the soviet ones, as the russian factories were far away like the british.

There is no shortage of places to put Soviet factories. Create a mini - Soviet economy in the far North - connect it to nothing by air or land or sea - and it will create your planes but not distort on map economics - nor temp AI either.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Is it possible to add that much factories to the game, that the whole allied production is undertaken by them? That would avoid the problem that obsolete AC still get produced and still can get used in big numbers.

Are you saying that if you set a Hurricane to upgrade to a later model, the replacements will continue after that model date occurs?

[Historiker]

REPLY: the first part is correct. Generally I don't think about that - but at the map edge it does not present a problem - I imagine it represents "off map stuff arriving on the map edge." But the second part isn't: you need HI centers to turn those resources and oil into HI points - or you cannot "fuel" the aviation factories - which want a uniform 18 HI points per aircraft.

No, it is correct! Why do you guess I've written "when the HI is inland, it doesn't produce fuel"?
When I talk about off map ressources and oil and one sentence later about HI, don't you think there may be a connection between this things? I've written about the HI inland as you said "oh no, the allies will get to much supplies and fuel them"... Did you ever have a game as allied where you run short on supplies or fuel on the West Coast? I didn't! So I see no problem. What difference does it make if you have endless tons of supplies or uncountable tons of supplies - as this will be the only difference...

REPLY: It depends on the aircraft: B-24E were very late - by the time they were able to START production, it was "almost obsolete" - and they were built in large numbers into the time frame of the G series. [E was a Ford copy of the D, and it was not only built by Ford directly at Willow Run, the world's second largest building after Boeing Renton, Ford also supplied kits to three other companies: so this was a really big production deal - and it was NOT replaced by the later model for a long time.] But for a crude simple system, yes - that is how it works - and generally it is correct. As Japan I find it awful not to be able to get an older aircraft (if you order it into production it automatically switches back anyway - often you cannot keep units at strength - nor enough production of the later model - because in Japan there is the engine limit issue messing with you).

Where's the problem? If you have production model A, a later version B, than a C and a D and A swiches to C and then to D while B still gets produced when C is already under production - you should be able to let B not upgrade before D is activated. Then you can still produce your obsolete aircraft while a later Block is already introduced. Moreover, there one might also make the exeption and let this plane type get off map reinforced...

REPLY: I looked it up: manpower is not required by HI - but neither does it produce HI points. It should be required to produce land units - and if it isn't I fail to see why they exist at all? Or the "Allied production" button? But we don't need to add manpower - it will just eat resources points.

So where's the problem then? Then only add ressource and oil centers or let this ressources off map produce to feed the HI...

EPLY: Sometimes old planes continue - even after their replacements are stopped in production! Consider the Stringbag, and it isn't alone. Ki-49 didn't ever replace Ki-21 either, although designed for that. I would rather players decide - but for the Allies that isn't practical in this system. However, in RHS it won't happen to B-17s: all are produced in Washington or California - and they WILL upgrade to newer types.

as I said. Then simply make an exeption here and let the aircraft still come from off map in this rare case...

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

REPLY: the first part is correct. Generally I don't think about that - but at the map edge it does not present a problem - I imagine it represents "off map stuff arriving on the map edge." But the second part isn't: you need HI centers to turn those resources and oil into HI points - or you cannot "fuel" the aviation factories - which want a uniform 18 HI points per aircraft.

No, it is correct! Why do you guess I've written "when the HI is inland, it doesn't produce fuel"?
When I talk about off map ressources and oil and one sentence later about HI, don't you think there may be a connection between this things? I've written about the HI inland as you said "oh no, the allies will get to much supplies and fuel them"... Did you ever have a game as allied where you run short on supplies or fuel on the West Coast? I didn't! So I see no problem. What difference does it make if you have endless tons of supplies or uncountable tons of supplies - as this will be the only difference...

REPLY: I follow you - you want land heavy industry centers - and if you do that - there is indeed no fuel. However, I think supplies are a big issue - I went to a lot of trouble to get them in the ball park - so the Allies do NOT have unlimited supplies in 1942 - and so they grow to much larger but still not unlimited quantities by 1945. I think logistics is the heart of both strategy and operations, and so I don't favor having unlimited supply.

However, gestating on this discussion while I was working, I came back with a new understanding: if you create ISOLATED production centers (up in Hudson Bay for the US/UK, in Northern Siberia for the USSR) and do not tie these points by RR to the mainland logistic nets - then you can supply "free" resource points and oil to HI - get HI points - and feed them to aircraft plants. The only downside is that Allied supply totals will become meaningless in reports. But this will do what you want re aircraft - if set to upgrade they will sunset the rate of manufacture. I like this quite a bit. You will need locations - and I have none at all - but if you are willing to use location slots - about two or three will do it. You could even put Soviet production together with US production - and use adjacent centers that feed each other things by a local RR connection - and you might save a slot that way. It might be called "Allied rear area production box" or something like that.

[el cid again]

I don't like it if Allied aircraft do not honor the upgrade path we set - which seems so reasonable I never considered that it might not be done that way. For that reason, I might incorporate this concept (an isolated aircraft only production area). But first - lets ask if Matrix will modify the code in the next patch? It should be easy to set it to honor the upgrade path: when upgrade aircraft production begins, present aircraft replacement rate = 0.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

The Soviets shouldn't produce in Russia, as most of their Industry shall be to far away to bomb it - or did they have any AC-Factories in eastern Siberia? I'I have no access to my library at home, so I can't answer this atm.

There was a big aircraft factory at Komsomolsk that produced Il-2 Shturmoviks (later Il-2m) and Il-4 bombers (DB-3's until 1941). Probably the biggest aircraft factory in the Soviet Union (interestingly the factory was completely equipped with US engines).

And there was a factory at Irkutsk (#125) that mass-produced SB's until 1941 and (after the relocation of factory #39 from Moscow) Il-4's.

[Historiker]

Yes sid, add this - it would be great! [:)]

@Kereguelen
Then it's even more important to add this plants there as a japanese player should be able to destry this facilitys.
PS: aus Hamburg?

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Historiker

The Soviets shouldn't produce in Russia, as most of their Industry shall be to far away to bomb it - or did they have any AC-Factories in eastern Siberia? I'I have no access to my library at home, so I can't answer this atm.

There was a big aircraft factory at Komsomolsk that produced Il-2 Shturmoviks (later Il-2m) and Il-4 bombers (DB-3's until 1941). Probably the biggest aircraft factory in the Soviet Union (interestingly the factory was completely equipped with US engines).

And there was a factory at Irkutsk (#125) that mass-produced SB's until 1941 and (after the relocation of factory #39 from Moscow) Il-4's.

Then we should put these on the map - so they will do the right upgrade thing and so they can be attacked or even captured. FYI captured plants WILL produce for the other side - but start wholly untooled and at quantity zero. I didn't do it - it just is that way. I assumed that Allied plants captured would not work for Japan. But they convert to the next Japanese plane of the same type - sooner or later - it can take a while - depending on supplies I suppose? And that still at zero. But once they convert to a Japanese type - they can have the quantity increased. Unexpected, but true. There was an aircraft plant at Canton and one at Bangkok - but neither were used during the war - in spite of the presence of a skilled labor work force as well as tooling.

[Historiker]

For Germany not only the Tchechoslovakian (or how it is spelled [;)]) plants produced tanks and planes - also dutch and french plants produced planes for the luftwaffe!
So this isn't totally unrealistic. Moreover, the production was at a low rate, so if goes down to zero and needed to be raised manually again, it's quite realistic, too

[JeffroK]

So in the end,
 
The Allies can set up Factories which produce Aircraft??
 
 
 
 

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Yes sid, add this - it would be great! [:)]

@Kereguelen
Then it's even more important to add this plants there as a japanese player should be able to destry this facilitys.
PS: aus Hamburg?

Aus Hamburg!

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

So in the end,

The Allies can set up Factories which produce Aircraft??

Sure they can. There are Allied factories that produce aircraft in the USA, in Canada, in Australia and in India right now in RHS (and in most of them in CHS). But apparently there are still missing factories (and upgrades) in Australia, and there are two missing Soviet factories - see above. In spite of a desire to freeze and move on, both these will be incorporated in yet another update: x.7852