Vary Setup....used in mods??

[ny59giants]

I was thinking about how very little use this option is used by PBEM players in all games. I have a few questions about it for the modders.
Can it be used in your mod??
Can it be used for games that have a non-historical start??
If yes to either of these questions, can it be modified to have the 2 CV TF start someplace else besides the options it already has (not hard coded)??

I have 2 PBEM's with non-historical starts and a small "what if" would be nice to have them pop up somewhere around Australia, just to throw in a small curve to a Japanese opponent. [:D]

[el cid again]

I don't know if the switch is often used or not - how would we know? Clearly it can be used if you want to.

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I don't know if the switch is often used or not - how would we know?

Since no After Action Report on this forum mentions the use of 'vary setup' I'd say we can safely assume that the switch isn't used very often.

[el cid again]

Matrix says most users play solitare and never report on the Forum. Vary Setup is to give some unexpected variations as an option for players. I don't think we have any idea whatever how popular the switch is with most owners of the game? And if there is a way to know - I don't think AARs on the Forum - which is ignored by most players - is the way we would get the data.

On the other hand, I can think of no reason the switch would be a problem in any mod? Use it if you want to - I say.

[JeffroK]

Now, if someone was to use the option on RHS and report any effects....

I just tried in GM version of CHS154 and nothing happened, though you would need to try a few times in case it variably didnt change...

IMHO, certain slots would be coded with a different start location, I havent seen this though, and once we start moving units from slots we may ask a unit which hasnt arrived to start somewhere else.

[spence]

I got a new laptop the other day and naturally the first thing I put on it was WitP. Just to see that the program ran (the laptop has Vista) I fired it up and just for grins I used the following (vanilla):

Historical 1st Turn: ON
Vary Setup: ON
Dec 7th Surprise: ON

Things changed as follows:

The PH Raid had about 1/2 as many planes (no torps) but the other half attacked a BB Surf TF with Maryland and West Virginia in the Oahu hex.

The air units at PH attacked the KB in the AM phase and got wiped out. Allied air units performed strike missions in the AM phase all over the map.

It seemed that the Lexington moved slightly from the spot I always see it in but maybe not.

It wasn't really a test or anything and I wasn't really paying attention until the PH AF went after the KB.

[spence]

Tried three more with the same settings as above.

The first two were essentially identical to the "ordinary" historical first turn.

In the third try the PH air units attacked the KB (and got wiped out). The KB raid on PH was identical to the ones in trys 1 & 2: 126 D3As, 143 B5Ns, and 76 Zeros. In Malaya some of the Brit torpedo bombers: 1 sqdrn of Vildebeasts and the sqdrn of Swordfish were stationed close enough to Khota Bharu to make torpedo attacks.

After the combat resolution phase of each try no change was noted in the location of any of the US CVs. After try 3 I noted that a Surf TF composed of West Virginia, Maryland, 2 CAs, 2 CLs and 8 DDs was located approx 2 hexes ESE of French Frigate Shoals.

I didn't check anything in any of these trys other than in the PI, Malaya and Hawaii areas

[2ndACR]

there are 3 possible options for vary setup. These only work with historical start.
 
Surface groups near PH
CV's moved very close to PH
CV's in port at PH (this one is very rare)
 
I have even used it way back when in a stock PBEM game and KB was utterly destroyed. All 6 CV's took alot of damge from the Lex and Enterprise. The last one was sunk by Enterprise near Wake. My opponent vanished after that.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Now, if someone was to use the option on RHS and report any effects....

RHS has always assumed it was an option. About 1/3 of tests are run using the switch - to detect any significant technical problems which might be associated with it. There are none yet identified. I personally believe in uncertainty as a factor in command decisions, and I don't like the comment by a Matrix senior programmer that you can only play WITP one time - after which you know too much. So I think this mechanism is a great feature - to keep the game interesting - at least after the first time you play a mod. It is also why RHS comes with different scenarios (as indeed does stock) - with different starting strategies - and different long term investment in assets policy in place (original, modified as IRL, better short term planning for the war by the aggressor, longer term planning for the war by the aggressor). If there is 100% knowledge "this many ships must appear here" I don't think you are sitting in the chair that is remotely like a real commander does. [Witness Sandy Woodward in 1982: they knew there was an enemy carrier group and an enemy surface action group, but they never did localize the carrier group at all, and it actually got into position to launch on the detected RN task force: the Args did not grasp how rare that sitation was - and failed to launch: it was just like practice with USN - the wind was not ideal - and "we can always do it again tomorrow" - but tomorrow never came. Uncertainty applies to both sides, almost all the time.]

I RECOMMEND using the switch with RHSAIO - which is intended for solitare play - and by definition that means that there is no human creating uncertainty for you on the other side.

[Big B]

ny59giants,
I am playing a PBEM (mod) right now with vary set-up used, and it causes no problems.

[spence]

I continued starting scenarios with the Vary Setup button activated through another 10 or so tries today. Apparently whether or not Dec 7th Surprise is ON or OFF doesn't matter much because I got similar results to what I have posted before: some essentially identical to the default "historical" turn and some with a few rebasings of a/c in Malaya and the PI and a Surf TF occasionally away from PH so that a few ships escape damage (about the same number of times however the same Surf TF was in the Oahu hex and got hammered by around 2 CVs worth of attack planes in both AM and PM phases so the same two BBs (Wee Vee and Maryland) seem to end up either sunk or undamaged depending on deployment. In every single one of my startups today (15+) the US CVs were always in the same hexes far enough away from PH to neither become a target nor launch an airstrike against KB.

Frankly I don't see that the Vary Setup button varies things enough to cause any especial heartburn for the IJN Player or offer much in the way of opportunity to the Allied Player. If, as 2ACR says, the KB comes under attack from nearby US CVs that are undetected once in a while, the probability of that seems very low indeed. That applies equally whether the Dec 7th Surprise button is toggled or not. Although the KB came under air attack from PH in better than 50% of the startups it never suffered any significant damage to any of its ships (usually none at all) in my startups. Neither was there any statistically significant change in the number of its own a/c lost in the turn attacking/defending. Likewise Clark Field in the PI was always put out of action (damage >75%) though it managed an ineffective attack in the AM Phase roughly half the time.

[el cid again]

I fully concur with Spence's analysis - and I have been looking (admittedly briefly) at this matter for about 18 months. I don't think it matters a lot - maybe not enough - and I don't think it is any sort of problem in any game that a player might want to apply it to.

[JeffroK]

So Spence tried it with Vanilla and it works, I tried it way back then and remember some changes.
 
Big B tried it on a mod and it made minor changes
 
I tried it once on CHS154 and saw no changes (more re-runs needed)
 
How do you code this to happen, I want to have some Bde/Rgts appear in odd locations (Pt Moresby/Rabaul etc) can it be coded or not?

[ny59giants]

I'm not a modder, but it is interesting to see that this option is not hard coded. Like Jeff, I would like to see some of the mods have this as an option to get a little "what if" applied at the beginning at the game.
 
For the experts, what units are potentially affected by this option besides the 2 CV TF??
 
Thanks for the feedback. [&o]

[spence]

Not that I'm an expert but the Surf TF that sometimes appears is invariably composed of USS West Virginia, USS Maryland, 2 CAs, 2 CLs and 8 DDs (I didn't really pay attention to the smaller ships). It seems that the TF shows up just SE of French Frigate Shoals or in Oahu. If the former the KBs PH raid contains 76 Zeros, 126 Vals, and 143 Kates. If the latter the PH raid contains 76 Zeros, 90 Vals and 117 Kates (latter two type numbers approx but the raid was always the same size in my tries and was always followed by a same size anti-ship raid against the TF in Oahu along with a PM raid against the same TF).

I've fiddled with the button before along with arranging a complete CV, LBA, Surf TF, SS ambush of the KB in the editor to see if there was any possibility of the WITP PH Operation turning out really badly (historians seem to think some risk was involved). My conclusion: there is no risk of outright disaster...there is a small risk that Japan will lose enough that the game will end with the Japanese Player quitting.

[el cid again]

IF Spence has this right - you can fiddle with what ships appear by changing the slot of the ship to that of the one he identifies. Probably.