Jap CVE or CVL

[Cavalry Corp]

Seems to me if the CVE were CVL with proper aigrgroups they would be a lot more use . I think the game seems to penalise CVE too much . What did the Japs use them for ??
in fact I have found small use for JAP cve . Do not transport planes that much I mainly fly them
I did use the CVE with 27 Zero for LRCAP supporting the KB once but they are real slow

But has any one got good ideas for them I have I think 4 Its march 43 stock PBEM

mICHAEL

[BrucePowers]

In real life, if I remember correctly (and I may not), a portion of IJN CVE were used for pilot training.

The USN took 2 Great Lakes steamers and added flight decks to them for pilot training, freeing up real carriers (CVE or othwerwise) for operations.

[Cavalry Corp]

Seems reasonable
One would like to have thought that you could take a carrier capable on a CVE and train up Navy pilots to be added to your pool or somthing - just seems like the CVE have less use than they should have
M

[trollelite]

You need every one extra fighter. For me I don't hesitate to scratch every single float fighter I could muster. Besides, in cruise speed they are not slower than regular carriers.

[Gen.Hoepner]

Jap CVE can be usefull imho. They can perform enough CAP cover for a convoy if you fear the 4E long range Naval attacks...or probably are more interersting of used to puzzle enemy's will: group 3 of them and send somewhere where they can be spotted at max range by catalinas...they will report what could be read as the presence of the KB, while your KB is somewhere else ready to ambush allied convoys or allied CVs(early in the game obv.)
 
I often use them also to provide a good ASW cover on the East-Indies - Japan route, placing a good VALs Daitai on them...
 
However they are a flexible and interesting weapon

[2ndACR]

Couple the CVE's with Junyo and her sister and they make a formible baby KB. I load them up with Zero's and Kates. Nothing worse as the allies to see 27 extra Zeros and 54 extra Kates coming in on a strike.

[spence]

Couple the CVE's with Junyo and her sister and they make a formible baby KB. I load them up with Zero's and Kates. Nothing worse as the allies to see 27 extra Zeros and 54 extra Kates coming in on a strike

And a mighty force in the game it is too even though it is about as historical as the Good Ship Lollipop.

A torpedo-armed Kate's range from one of those babies would have been about 40 feet forward of the stem. They had neither the flight deck length nor the speed (to develop relative wind) for the a/c to reach take-off speed so armed. According to "Shattered Sword" even the first half dozen or so Soryu/Hiryu attack plane drivers found taking off with torpedos to be more than just ordinarily exhilarating and those ships had 150 ft more flight deck and could steam 15 kts faster than any of those CVEs. I've read that the Junyo itself could only launch half its Kates in a single strike if they were armed with torpedos.

[Curty]

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Seems to me if the CVE were CVL with proper aigrgroups they would be a lot more use . I think the game seems to penalise CVE too much . What did the Japs use them for ??
in fact I have found small use for JAP cve . Do not transport planes that much I mainly fly them
I did use the CVE with 27 Zero for LRCAP supporting the KB once but they are real slow

But has any one got good ideas for them I have I think 4 Its march 43 stock PBEM

mICHAEL

Before the war was over the IJN listed no less than thirty ships classifiable as 'aircraft carriers'

13 fleet carriers
7 light carriers
5 escort carriers
2 merchant carriers
3 amphib support carriers or auxiliary carriers

ONLY 4 OF THESE SURVIVED THE WAR!

Also nine more ships at various parts of the war served as seaplane carriers, whether built from the keel up as such or converted from anything from old merchantmen to old BBs.

The Light Carriers...

Hosho- the oldest CVL commissioned Dec 22nd 1922. After years of experimental work during the 20's she was relegated to secondary tasks by the end of 1933. But by the time of Pearl she was back in the A-team taking part in Midway.
It then reverted back to the pilot training role. Survived the war, scrapped in 1947.

Ryujo- com May 9th 1933. During first 6 months of the war took part in Phillipines landings and the DEI, also participating in the Aleutians campaign. Sunk Aug 24 1942.

Shoho and Zuiho formed a class, converted from sub tenders..
Shoho com Jan 26 1942 was sunk at Coral sea (May 7).
Zuiho com Dec 27 1940 provided air cover for the invasion of the DEI...later damaged at Battle of Santa Cruz Islands. Repaired, it served at Phillipine Sea. Surviving this she was sunk at Caper Engano October 25 1944.

Ryuho- com Nov 28 1942 Also converted AS..employed for the main part as a training ship..damaged at anchor by an air raid March 19 1945, never repaired..broken for salvage 1946.

Chiyoda and Chitose both commissioned in 1938..Originally Sea-plane carriers, converted to aircraft carriers between 1942/1944.
Chitose helped cover the landings in the PI, DEI and the Gilberts. Damaged Battle of E.Solomons.
Chiyoda was part of Yamamotos reserve at Midway, took no part in battle.
Both were destroyed Oct 25 1944...Cape Engano.


The Escort carriers....

Taiyo, Unyo, Chuyo, Kaiyo, and Shinyo.

The first three formed a class, com respectively Sept 15 1941, May 31 1942, and Nov 25 1942. Converted from cargo-steamers, all 3 were used fro transport and training duties, Taiyo served in a support role at E.Solomons...All torped by US subs..
Taiyo in SChina sea Aug 18 1944
Unyo of Hong Kong Sept 16 1944
Chuyo off Yokosuka Dec 4 1943

Kaiyo converted passenger ship..com as a carrier Nov 23 1943..used as an aircraft transport until mid-44, then pilot training after that...Disabled by British carrier-based aircraft off Kyushu July 24 1945, scrapped after the war.

Shinyo converted from a German passenger Liner stranded in Japan in 1939. com Dec 15 1943..used for training mainly..sunk by US submarine off ShanghaiNov 17 1944.

A 6th carrier Ibuki was said to have been converted from the hull of a Mogami type cruiser at Sasebo...details are somewhat hazy..although listed as being commissioned May21 1943 it was never completed and was broken up after the war....



I hope that answers a few of your questions...[;)]

[Dili]

I use them to transfer fighter squadrons, training and escort high valuable convoys. Less Operational loses when i send a squadron to NEI or the Solomons.

[Snip]

Well,

apart from "historical" issues as raised by "spence", the IJN CVEs are pretty useful IMHO - in WitP territory.
I tend to use them pretty much as the CVLs early on.
Past mid 42 - assuming they survive the early phase unscathed - combining them with slow BBs on bombardment raids can be very handy.

As the game mechanics go: Enemy bombers go for the BBs on the inbound leg, fighters and bombers from the CVEs protect the BBs from air attack, float planes from a CS in the CVE TF afford ASW support and search capabilities - as do the float planes from the BBs.
The BBs bombard, probaly reducing the enemy air response, depending on results, the CVE bombers attack the same base next turn.
And all withdraw.
Keeping a Zero, Val and Kate Chutai in reserve nearby to replenish the CVE flightdecks in case of need may help.
CVE Tayio can be used in many ways and changing the composition of the air group depending on situation may help to surprise/confuse the "other side".

2 x Zero plus 1 x Kate Chutai.
1 x Zero plus 1 x Kate, 1 x Val (base attack)
3 x Zero for CAP
1 x Zero plus 2 x Kate for ASW.

Of course, the CVEs do not have much "punch". On the other hand, as long as the "enemy" has not clearly identified a CVE, who can tell the difference of an air strike from CVLs, CVEs or a single "Fleet" carrier ?
Keeping the CVEs out of the "hottest" zones is not a bad idea.

Anyway. If you care to have a look, I started an AAR thread based on CVE Taiyo. Still very early in the war.
Maybe you get an idea, or learn from my glorious sucesses or miserable failure.
you can find it here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1579999

[spence]

Historical Issues?

The history is that these ships did not conduct torpedo strike operations (Junyo/Hiyo excepted I think but maybe not).

The reasons that they did not was determined by the Physical Laws pertaining to aerodynamics and the relevant attributes of all the equipment.

I am certain that launching torpedo strikes from these ships is not an area where "improving on the performance of historical antecedents (the real IJN)" pertains.

[Fishbed]

(Junyo/Hiyo excepted I think but maybe not).

At least Junyo did it at Santa Cruz if I remember Okumya's testimony right, and both may have launched torpedo planes at the Marianas too I guess [&:]

[2ndACR]

I could have sworn the starter of the thread asked what he COULD do with them in the game. I told him what he could do with them. But to appease all you "it did not happen in real life" guys. Stack them with Zero's and Vals.

[Mark VII]

I tended to operate them with Mini-KB to add some CAP/firepower and add an alternative deck to hopefully attract bombs or torps from Junyo or Hiyo. I also would base CV airgroups on CVE's while said CV was under going major repair. Never lost a CVE that way but they always operated close to friendly bases so the CV air units might survive should some thing bad happen to the CVE.

[Fishbed]

I could have sworn the starter of the thread asked what he COULD do with them in the game. I told him what he could do with them. But to appease all you "it did not happen in real life" guys. Stack them with Zero's and Vals.

But Shattered Sword says that those crumpy CVL lifts couldn't accomodate the large Val - that's maybe why Zuiho or Ryujo were operating Kates in a bomber role...? Maybe their speed was high enough to allow Kates to carry torpedoes anyway?

[2ndACR]

Oh, well in that case. Load them all up with Zeros and let the allies face a crap load of fighters on CAP. Create a bigger than already UBERCAP.
 
I will just keep my baby KB as is and run around and sink allied ships and even the odd CV or 2.

[Dili]

Maybe they can operate with Kate but with a 250kg bomb  but i am not sure. Anyway in real life they mostly were used for transfer including Army planes.

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4492.0

And Ryujo was the only CVL that could operate Vals.

This thread talks about this issues:

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=3157.0

[Fishbed]

very interesting discussion, thanks Dili

[Feinder]

I like to put 2x 9-plane Zero flights, and 1x 9-plane Kate flight on Taiyo (capcity 30).  I tried putting 1 flight of Zeros and 2 flights of Kates, but her sorty capacity is only 90, and you burn thru that very quickly.  Reducing it to 1 flight of 9 Kates extends your deployment range (albeit reducing your punch, but she's probably operating with mini-KB anyway), and the extra top-cover is certainly welcome.

I don't use Vals on her for anti-shipping, Kates are certainly more effective.  But for ASW, I think they recently tested that planes with torpedos as their primary weapon don't attack subs; so if you want her for ASW, use Vals.

-F-

I just read this line...

A torpedo-armed Kate's range from one of those babies would have been about 40 feet forward of the stem.

[:D] Very cleverly put!

[Gen.Hoepner]

The Vals in ASW role are very effective. With 80+ exp pilots and 250 kg bomb armed these babies can easily sink the nasty subs in the shallow waters of the Philippinian sea