Proposed change of statistical categories for V2.2

[David Winter]

Greetings.

I am considering making a change to one area of the statistical categories for version 2.2.

Merging Tackles and Interception categories into just a 'Defensive Category' with Tackles, Sacks, Knock Downs, TFL, INT's etc.... all in one category.

As this change will require a reset of your leagues, and I know that many would prefer not to do that, I'm raising the question here.

Would you like me to leave the categories as is and allow you to leave your leagues.

Or would you like me to merge the categories into one that makes more sense, but it would require a league reset.

Let me know.. thanks

[Frank Brickowski]

Now when you say reset the league. Does the reset affect player names or ratings? If not i have no problem with resetting.

[Tbird]

Resetting your league resets you team rosters and stats

[David Winter]

Resetting a league brings it back to a season zero state.
 
thanks

[garysorrell]

I voted yes, but now im kinda sorry I did. I mean, if this change would be of some great benefit, then yes....I guess it would be a good thing.

But, I bought Max because its features allow me to play just like I always have, especially with FBPro. Season after season. I put a lot of work into a league...profiles, playbooks, art. I really want to be able to just start playing.

Our online league, the PIFL is going to reset after 2 seasons, so to have to do it again would be a bummer.

[David Winter]

I'm often being asked to add more stats or to change the way the stats are represented. Unfortunately, in the majority of cases, it's not possible to do that and leave existing leagues in tact. They're unfortunately contradicting requests.

Which is why I have posted this poll. I have no preference either way but I know it impacts people that would like me to leave things as is. And I know if I leave things as is, then it disappoints people that want me to add more stats.

This wouldn't be a major addition of statistical items. With version 2.2 there is only the possibility of adding 4 to 5 new defensive stat items. So it's not like there will be 20 new items tracked. It's a small amount. The items being evaluated for addition are Knock Downs, Tackle For Loss, Fair Catch, and Touchbacks. And as mentioned, I would like to merge the Interception Category and Tackle categories together to have a single Defensive category.

[edit]- The reason for the resets is simply to ensure that the statistical items are displayed properly. You ~might~ try going without a reset but you will end up with two types of missing stats. The first type would be the loss of any existing interceptions. Because the interception record would be moved in the database, any INT's recorded prior to your install of 2.2 would be lost. The second type would be due to statistical items simply not being recorded yet. For example; Tackle For Loss has never been recorded before so you would end up with a bunch of zeros' in your stat columns up to the point you installed 2.2. That's less important than missing data that was recorded, but it would still make your league history look a bit strange.


I will leave this topic pinned until October 26th to receive your feedback on this.

Thank you,

David

[elmerlee]

Very glad to see this. Very. I could really get interested again.

Now here is something I have not seen mentioned. The on-screen writeup of the play is excellemt with
the play-call and yardage and other things listed. What I would like to see is the same things printed to a text file at the time they go onto the screen. At the option of the player of course.

My reason behind this would be that it would be easy for me to develop a program to
parse the file and record any number of things that might be too hard to do "live in game".
Example - how many times was a certain play called and hoe many yards were gained using that play.

Once the true value of the customization of the game translates into "third-party add-ons" this will
be something special.

[Scott_WAR]

David, with all due respect, the game is fine as is. Adding a couple of vague stats isnt going to help enough to warrant wasting your time on and people having to restart their leagues. At some point you have to leave 2.0 alone and start on 3.0. I think version 2 is done and its time to move on. So far, I have had to put off for a year doing any work with the game because of the constant changes, then had to wait even longer to join a league, and now that 2.0 is out we are reseting, and I think enough is enough. We dont want to have to reset again in a few months. 

So in summary, MF version 2 is finished, its not worth making people start over AGAIN for a few stats. Get to work on version 3, so we dont have to wait forever for it.

[jdhalfrack]

Here's a question:
 
Would it be possible to make an editor, or have someone else do it, that could convert an old league to the new league format (if you do merge stuff)?  I mean, once again Gary has hit the nail right on the head (is this guy smart or what?).  If a change is going to make future versions of the game better, you HAVE to include it.  Is it unfortunate for those who have a well running league? Yes. But there are some sacrifices you HAVE to make to make the game better.
 
So, the answer to my question about an editor should be yes for two reasons.  The first is just a matter of how do you want to "sell" the game.  If this change is a good one, then you have to make the change to sell the product.  If you have to make the change, you really ought to make a program to convert old league files to "sell the change."
 
The second is just a matter of how the league files work. Seeing that all the old information is just data, it should be transferable.  Currently (as I've stated before) I don't own the game, but from what I can tell all the league information is just stored in a MS ACCESS file.  Any information stored in an ACCESS file can be extracted very easily (WAY more easily than Madden's files) using Visual Basic 6 or .Net or C++ (in fact, I have already created a file that extracts all the league info... well the info from the maindata.mdb).  If it can be extracted, it can be formatted, reformatted, edited, transferred, etc...  If it can be all that, it can then be inserted into a new file.  If it can be inserted... well... now you have a new league file with the old information but in the new current format.
 
I know I don't own the game and probably shouldn't have a say until I actually pay up [:)] but I would have to say that any change for the overall betterment (not sure if that is a word) of the game HAS to be voted yes.
 
Okay, I'm done [:)]
 
JD

[Scott_WAR]

Come on though, forcing people to reset their leagues to add 4 stats....... 4 stats. Thats asking a lot, for very little gain. Especially when you consider how long we had to wait untill leagues were even doable, and that some leagues have already had to reset or deal with diffcult bugs, then with 2.0 we HAVE to reset,.......is it really worth asking people to wait again, reset again, just to add tracking for 4 unnecessary stats?

If it can be done so that leagues dont need to be reset fine, but I think the league I am in, and more than likely other leagues, will just NOT use the patch instead of resetting. So why waste the time, when that time would be better used starting 3.0, and making us wait less time for it to get here.

[Marauders]

I'm often being asked to add more stats or to change the way the stats are represented. Unfortunately, in the majority of cases, it's not possible to do that and leave existing leagues in tact. They're unfortunately contradicting requests.

That is always a problem, and it forces difficult choices. Thank you for asking for community feedback.

Which is why I have posted this poll. I have no preference either way but I know it impacts people that would like me to leave things as is. And I know if I leave things as is, then it disappoints people that want me to add more stats.

In my opinion, the critical issue is how comprehesive the changes are going to be and what other changes are being made that kill bugs or resolve other issues. If 2.2 is going to resolve other issues, I would suggest not making any statistical updates in that build. That way, leagues that do not wish to update will not be forced to go without the patch.

I would also suggest that if any statistical changes are to be made to 2.x, they should be made in a build as close to the 2.x cut off as possible. That way, anyone wanting to make the change may do so without having to wait for 3.0 a year down the road. Those who wish to wait can skip that patch.

This wouldn't be a major addition of statistical items. With version 2.2 there is only the possibility of adding 4 to 5 new defensive stat items. So it's not like there will be 20 new items tracked. It's a small amount. The items being evaluated for addition are Knock Downs, Tackle For Loss, Fair Catch, and Touchbacks.

If fumbles are tracked, does the trigger allow for the potential to track Forced Fumbles as a defensive statistic?

If the quarterback is forced to scramble, but is not sacked, can Hurries be tracked?

What changes are you looking to make for the offensive statistics? Are there potential triggers for Dropped Passes and Pancake Blocks?

Are any new team statistics being considered for tracking? Is Yards Allowed a statistic that is being tracked for the team? Can turnovers and turnover margins (give away/take away) be displayed? Is the ability to record third down percentage and fourth down percentage (first downs on third and fourth down respectively) something that could be tracked? Can first downs be recorded?

I suspect added team statistics would be more difficult to add until 3.0, but I thought I would bring them up here as long as statistics are being discussed.

And as mentioned, I would like to merge the Interception Category and Tackle categories together to have a single Defensive category.

I am not sure what you mean here. Could you explain this in a bit more detail.

[jdhalfrack]

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR
I think the league I am in, and more than likely other leagues, will just NOT use the patch instead of resetting.

Well, didn't you kind of answer your own question in your response? If you don't want to use the patch, then don't.

Let's use Madden as an example. Let's say I have a franchise/league that is from 2005. Well, 2006 comes out and it really only has a couple new features. I wouldn't be able to use my 2005 league in 2006. Well, last I checked, Madden isn't holding a gun to your head forcing you to upgrade to 2006 or 2007 or 2008. However, many people have made editors to convert old franchise/leagues to the new and latest version. And guess what... no one is forcing you to use those editors either.

Here's the thing... It seems like MaxFB is up and coming along nicely. But since there are only a handful of guys working on it and it's still a releatively new game, there will be many releases with minor updates until a set up they like is finalized. Why would they wait all the way for a new version to release a small update? they aren't not revamping the entire thing. And once again, I HAVE to insist I'm sure there is a way to convert. I mean, if you can convert to the new setup with no data loss, then there wouldn't be a problem at all anyway!

JD

[Marauders]

JD,
 
I don't believe that David will have the time to create a conversion tool for any change of this sort.  On the other hand, if there is a third party tool to do this, I am sure that most game owners would be appreciative of any changes or upgrades to the statistics.  I agree with that.
 
2.2 is a patch, so it can't really be viewed in the same way a move from Madden 05 to Madden 06 would be.  One has to consider that many Maximum Football game owners have been awaiting the 2.0 release to get on with their leagues, and many have indeed got on with their leagues. 
 
If there was a MaxFB 2.5 as an upgrade with additional features as well, then that would need a different consideration.
 

[jdhalfrack]

ORIGINAL: Marauders

I don't believe that David will have the time to create a conversion tool for any change of this sort.  On the other hand, if there is a third party tool to do this, I am sure that most game owners would be appreciative of any changes or upgrades to the statistics.  I agree with that.

Which is why as soon as I can learn more about editing ACCESS files, I will gladly help with any conversions. [:)]

JD

[Marauders]

Which is why as soon as I can learn more about editing ACCESS files, I will gladly help with any conversions. [:)]

 
The files may be comma delineated.

[David Winter]

I knew this would be a debate between very different opinions [:)] I certainly see both sides, which is why I left the final decision up to the user base.
 

quote:

And as mentioned, I would like to merge the Interception Category and Tackle categories together to have a single Defensive category.

I am not sure what you mean here. Could you explain this in a bit more detail.

 
Right now there are two categories. I want to merge them.
 
 

Would it be possible to make an editor, or have someone else do it, that could convert an old league to the new league format (if you do merge stuff)? 

 
I suppose it probably could. As you mention it's data and data can be manipulated. The biggest issue, that was already pointed out, is time. I think I would spend more time building the conversion tool than actually making the changes.
 
Finding a way to make updates from one build to another consumer friendly is a constant challenge. There's a lot of code in the game that does nothing but validate files to builds and ensures things are properly updated as best it can. So I'll continue to investigate how it ~may~ be possible to update without a reset. I just prefer to error on the side of caution here and inform people that it's very likely a reset would be required.
 
I think more people would be upset finding out after it was too late that a reset of their league was needed, than being asked up front what they thought.
 
thanks
David
 
 

[David Winter]

Hi.
 
Based on the results, I'll be moving foward with the new stat items and the merged category.
 
thanks
David