Semovente da 75/18 and AP rounds

RickI · Post by **RickI** » Mon May 06, 2002 2:33 pm

Hi everybody,
yesterday I was trying to make a scenario utilizing some Italian armor, M14/41 and Semoventi basically, plus Bersaglieri support.

Against my troops were hordes of British Valentines and Matildas and some Grants, and I was shocked looking how my Semoventi were unable to make almost anything to neither of these tanks.

Then I saw the stat of the 75/18 gun and saw that Max penetration was only 56mm at close range and that the Semovente uses only few rounds of AP or HEAT rounds.

Now, I've read somewhere that the 75/18 in our Army utilized the special "Effetto Pronto" (E.P.) round and that it could penetrate around 70mm of armor and that it was very effective in North Africa, much more than the 47/32 we used as an anti-tank gun.

It was a Hollow shot, so it should be a Heat round, but they carried more rounds and it perforated more armor.

Ah... another thing:
I noticed that there are actually 2 47/32 M.35 guns in the Inventory.

The "47mm L32 Breda" and the "47L32 m35 Gun" and they have different stats and the latter has even stats for APCR rounds.

Strange enough the M13/40 uses the "47L32 m35 Gun"
while the M14/41 uses the "47mm L32 Breda".
In reality there were only minimal difference between the tanks, the engine was slightly more powerful etc.

Anyone?

Brutto-Bob · Post by **Brutto-Bob** » Mon May 06, 2002 4:13 pm

Ciao,

the italian OOB have many errors, like wrong pics and wrong weapons data.

I've used the same Semovente in a PBEM game, it have only 1 HEAT round, and many HE rounds...

RickI · Post by **RickI** » Wed May 08, 2002 1:43 pm

Ciao Bob,
già, per fortuna che si possono cambiare gli OOB.

Esisteva un sito con dei dati su vari cannoni della seconda guerra mondiale. Non so se l'ho cancellato pero'.

Comunque complimenti anche per gli scenari che hai disegnato.
Potresti aiutarmi a creare uno scenario su "Quota 731" di Monastero in Grecia?
Hai qualche mappa ?

Grazie

ruxius · Post by **ruxius** » Thu May 09, 2002 2:01 am

Ciao Riccardo ,
il punto è che se non ci mettiamo noi a correggere un po' sti oob loro giustamente non ci perdono tempo più di tanto...io purtroppo tempo ne ho zero assoluto...
comunque un sito in inglese su cui puoi trovare qualcosa è[URL=http://]www.comandosupremo.com[/URL]
oltre naturalmente tutti i soliti altri....

Supervisor · Post by **Supervisor** » Thu May 09, 2002 2:07 am

Man I hate it when they do that.

WhiteRook · Post by **WhiteRook** » Thu May 09, 2002 2:29 am

Hey gentlemen! Your leaving the rest of us linguisticly challenged folks out of the thread!

ruxius · Post by **ruxius** » Thu May 09, 2002 2:45 am

ops ..sorry ..the point is simple that for us english is a foreign language and sometimes we are caught by temptation to write
running our language...but we forget many others may read here..
so here is my homework for repairing

Ricki replied that fortunatley we have the possibility to modify OOBs as a way to recover errors..
then he was looking for some maps and help about a scenario he is going to design "Quota 731" placed in Greece

then Ruxius (it's me ) , I added that it should be our effort (by italians ) to work for getting all the errors fixed but I have no much time to do that
Anyway there is a site at : comando supremo
where he may find some useful info..

hope this helps you
Bye

Gen.Hoepner · Post by **Gen.Hoepner** » Thu May 09, 2002 2:46 am

They're right guys!Let's talk in english only!I'm happy to see that a little but good italian community is spread around here! How many are we?10,more?
BTW the 75mm semovente was our best aromoured vehicle,and its main gun was able to defeat and to create problems to many allied tanks....but as u said:we can change the Oobs whenever we want!
Ciao

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Thu May 09, 2002 3:02 am

Ciao, Lo penso progetterò Una buona campagna per gli italiani

North Africa or 8th Army in Russia, I have finished many long standard campaigns using Italian core forces. But I alter the basic unit formations. I attach a flame team to each platoon.
I buy a recon team for each tank and upgrade them to incursori when they become avaialbe (since they are the only infantry type units small enough to fit on the tanks). Have you found taglia's web site yet (I'll find the url and put it up here)
arrivederci

RickI · Post by **RickI** » Thu May 09, 2002 3:06 am

Ops.. sorry guys.

Thanks for the site ruxius.
Do some of you know where I can get some maps to create some scenarios in Greece ?
(it would be really cool to make the "Klisura" gap mission)

Unfortunately there aren't many sites about the Greek campaign on the net. (actually I remember only 1...)

Gen. Hoepner, yeah the Semovente da 75/18 was really liked by our crews (at least it was better than the M13/M14 tanks), and it was able to pierce almost every allied tanks of that time used by the British army.
If only those P.40 were completed and used in North Africa instead of those tiny M13 tanks!

Another question: do you know if the game have even Armor quality in it, or they're all the same?
M13 armor was very bad, and even if it wasn't perforated it could shatter very easily, injuring or killing the crew inside.
Then it had bolted armor, and bits of parts could fly inside.

I have some interesting pictures taken from "Il Ponte di Klisura" (The bridge of Klisura) that show how even small cannon shells could easily make some serious damage to tanks and their crews.

Arralen · Post by **Arralen** » Thu May 09, 2002 7:10 pm

Originally posted by RickI
Another question: do you know if the game have even Armor quality in it, or they're all the same?

skirt / armor ratings - Paul posted this some time before.
"x1" means the tank has skirts, "4..7x" (as below) gives armor rating for special cases. Both features can be combined, though : PzKfw IVm .. skirt rating "41" means face hardened armor and carrying skirts.

40 is generally face hardened
50 is high hardness or flawed
60 is high hardness and flaws
70 is cast

The effects are adapted from the high hardness modifier equation in "WW2 Ballistics", as are cast modifiers. Face hardened modifiers are based on relationships gleaned from a number of sources and an equation of a form similar to The WW2 ballistics high hardness equation is used.

I don't have it handy, but with "alt-L" combat text logging you can see the modifers.

The functions use thickness of the armor, and T/d ratio to come up with a modifier. The lower the armor thicknes and the higher the T/d the lower the modifier is.

in general the modifiers will range:

1.3 - .9 for 40
1.15 - .8 for 50
1.05 - .7 for 60
.95 - .6 for 70

That is off the top of my head for the general range of "most favorable" (high thickness, high t/d) and "least favorable" (low thickness, low t/d) type conditions +/- .1 or so...

RickI · Post by **RickI** » Fri May 10, 2002 11:19 am

Thank you Arralen, I never noticed it while playing.

Now I can really say that armor fighting is the BEST around.

Mogami: that would be cool!
I have some informations (not maps though) on OOB, battles etc, that could be good I guess.

I'm still trying to find some maps of "Klisura" (I've read that the real name now is Kelcyre) in Greece, but was unsuccesful as of now.

My relatives fought in Greece ,North Africa and Russia and that's why I'm interested.

RickI · Post by **RickI** » Fri May 10, 2002 11:29 am

Oh... again, regarding the Semovente.

In a magazine there's a detailed article about the Semovente.

It says it had 3 type of ammunition:

- Perforante (Armor piercing)
- Dirompente (High Explosive)
- E.P. (Hollow charge)

Standard range to engage enemy tanks was 700 meters

and that the personnel of the Semoventi were better trained than the usual tank crews.

Now I only need some specs about the cannon itself, how much could it penetrate, at what range, at what angle etc...

Do you know any website with some informations?
Thanks again.

RickI · Post by **RickI** » Fri May 10, 2002 11:37 am

Hmm.... doing some research on Altavista I came upon this site:

http://miniatures.de/html/ita/shellsI.html

The 75/18 gun is said to be able to penetrate

59mm with normal A.P. rounds
120mm with E.P. rounds

At 100 meters range, 0° of inclination of armour.

WhiteRook · Post by **WhiteRook** » Sun May 12, 2002 7:21 am

Thanks for using english guy's!

I like to follow the threds of you gents from other countries, especialy when it comes to armor and ammo and the such!

Rook

Brutto-Bob · Post by **Brutto-Bob** » Tue May 14, 2002 2:34 pm

Ciao,

here is a page about the 75/18:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quart ... oventi.htm

I'm reading the book of Davide Beretta, Commander of the 1st Battery of the DLIV Gruppo Semoventi 75/18, it's a diary about the days spent at El-Alamain front by his battery (12 SM75/18).

He states that:

The crew are very well trained for months in north Italy (Friuli).

Then sended by aircraft in Africa, the Semoventi make a sea trip.

They are the only italian armour capable of piercing a Sherman.

Every Semovente go into battle carring about 100 rounds for his 75mm gun.

All tanks have radio.

Bye

ruxius · Post by **ruxius** » Wed May 15, 2002 12:08 am

WOW !
Very cool site a Bruttooo ! (Bob )
Very thank you !

Semovente da 75/18 and AP rounds

Semovente da 75/18 and AP rounds

Italian Long Campaigns

ops

Re: ops

?