The B.S. Power of CD

[Mynok]

The Thread will lead you to the promised land. Hypnotic it is. [:D]

[John 3rd]

Let me continue the pain of Pago-Pago.  With all this GREAT advice, I decided to land the 14th Brigade from China to augment the Infantry Division holding on by its fingernails.  On February 15, 1942, they go in to land.  I have enough AP to land them IN ONE LANDING with supplies.  There are several warships there to help with counter-bombardment.

What happens???

THEY ARE WIPED OUT!  I lose the entire unit BY ATTRITION that day.  The Shock Attack gets a 0-1 and I lose the ENTIRE UNIT.  This base has now accounted for 45,000 Japanese Casualties.

I am done with this.

Now what do you have to say!??  Am rather....(&*^&_^%^H:OI Y(Y*....

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Let me continue the pain of Pago-Pago.  With all this GREAT advice, I decided to land the 14th Brigade from China to augment the Infantry Division holding on by its fingernails.  On February 15, 1942, they go in to land.  I have enough AP to land them IN ONE LANDING with supplies.  There are several warships there to help with counter-bombardment.

What happens???

THEY ARE WIPED OUT!  I lose the entire unit BY ATTRITION that day.  The Shock Attack gets a 0-1 and I lose the ENTIRE UNIT.  This base has now accounted for 45,000 Japanese Casualties.

I am done with this.

Now what do you have to say!??  Am rather....(&*^&_^%^H:OI Y(Y*....

mmmm...this sounds even stranger...how can it be possible?? one entire brigade wiped out in a single shock attack lost?? Too much! Which scenario are u playing? You're sure it's not a strange mod?...Pago pago is well defended in CHS for example...but even there these results simply do not make any sense to me[&:]

[String]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Yaaa...I remember how those 155MM did so well during the REAL war! [:@][:@]

Dan--You KNOW perfectly well what a China Brigade is! These guys got tired of being in smelly. cold China and changed their uniforms for Tropical attire!

Yes because noone sailed up, anchored and started unloading under their noses [:D]

[String]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Let me continue the pain of Pago-Pago. With all this GREAT advice, I decided to land the 14th Brigade from China to augment the Infantry Division holding on by its fingernails. On February 15, 1942, they go in to land. I have enough AP to land them IN ONE LANDING with supplies. There are several warships there to help with counter-bombardment.

What happens???

THEY ARE WIPED OUT! I lose the entire unit BY ATTRITION that day. The Shock Attack gets a 0-1 and I lose the ENTIRE UNIT. This base has now accounted for 45,000 Japanese Casualties.

I am done with this.

Now what do you have to say!?? Am rather....(&*^&_^%^H:OI Y(Y*....

That indeed does sound strange. Can you post a screenshot of the combat screen and paste the combat resolution txt?

[Canoerebel]

John III and I are playing BigB Mod 1.40 with Scenario 191. 
 
I'm playing this this mod against Miller.  He, too, invaded Pago Pago, but under much different conditions.  In that game, I already had about 1300 AV totally dug in (9 forts) with 200k supply and all kinds of support troops.  He landed a division, but I don't recall the landing wreaking total havoc with his ships and men.  But a single division wasn't capable of handling the garrison, of course.
 
In this game, it's still early in the game (around Feb. 1, '42 when John first landed).  The garrison was a BF and a CD unit (both already in place when the game starts) and a FA regiment I diverted from Suva.  There are two forts and enough supplies, but not an overabundance.  John didn't do any pre-invasion bombardments or bombings.  Shoreguns decimated the invasion transports.  I think that started a cascade of problems - the troops came ashore in a weakened state due to shore guns, the automatic shock attack faired poorly, and then smaller units began disappearing by attrition.  I don't know whether John's troops were prepped.
 
Had the invasion been preceeded by bombardments and bombings, the results probably would have been much different.  At least that's my guess.

[String]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

John III and I are playing BigB Mod 1.40 with Scenario 191.

I'm playing this this mod against Miller. He, too, invaded Pago Pago, but under much different conditions. In that game, I already had about 1300 AV totally dug in (9 forts) with 200k supply and all kinds of support troops. He landed a division, but I don't recall the landing wreaking total havoc with his ships and men. But a single division wasn't capable of handling the garrison, of course.

In this game, it's still early in the game (around Feb. 1, '42 when John first landed). The garrison was a BF and a CD unit (both already in place when the game starts) and a FA regiment I diverted from Suva. There are two forts and enough supplies, but not an overabundance. John didn't do any pre-invasion bombardments or bombings. Shoreguns decimated the invasion transports. I think that started a cascade of problems - the troops came ashore in a weakened state due to shore guns, the automatic shock attack faired poorly, and then smaller units began disappearing by attrition. I don't know whether John's troops were prepped.

Had the invasion been preceeded by bombardments and bombings, the results probably would have been much different. At least that's my guess.

So basically a horribly prepared and planned operation that ran into stiff opposition and was destroyed. No wonder..

[John 3rd]

No String.  Not true whatsoever.

The 1st Landing of a full Infantry Division and Engineering Regiment (30,000+ troops) featured them with a Prep of 55 for the base.  They landed against a force only marginally stronger then WAKE ISLAND.  Yes--there is that FA Unit but that is about the ONLY difference.

Wake usually falls when  a pair of of strong SNLF or Naval Guard units hit it.  With the Forts at 2 instead of 1, I landed with a force 5-6 times that strength.  What CRAP!  Add to that then the second Landing of 2 small base forces and an Artillery Regiment then, finally this Brigade. 

I rarely get mad at the game anymore but this is insanity.  One little garrision with, as detailed above, less then a dozen good-sized guns have managed to kill 40,000 Japanese and sink about 20 AP/AK.  I cannot believe it.  If I say anything more, this will be appropriately censored by our good webmasters...

[seydlitz_slith]

Now we know what island John Wayne is own in your game.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner


Which scenario are u playing? You're sure it's not a strange mod?...

Just an FYI, in the mod he's playing Pago Pago does not start fortified or improved at all. Nor has the stats for a Field Artillery Regiment been altered in any way.

It sounds to me like some very unlucky die rolls, with misfortune compounding misfortune.

Also, remember that a FA Rgt has about the anti-ship firepower of two and half "Boise's" (36x 155's).

B

[Yamato hugger]

You MIGHT want to not land unsupported in the teeth of undisrupted coastal defense guns in the future.

Totally unrealistic? Look at the first invasion of Wake. That was what, 3 guns if I recall correctly? Japs learned a lesson and came back with a little more force the 2nd time. Hmmmmmmmm....

Unrealistic?

[Nikademus]

also, another good tactic is to change your invasion TF to "escort TF" so that the main transport force can contain BB's. BB's present in the actual landing force can greatly reduce the impact of CD's but suppressing them as well as taking some of the return fire which they can handle far better than a DD or AP.

[String]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

No String. Not true whatsoever.

The 1st Landing of a full Infantry Division and Engineering Regiment (30,000+ troops) featured them with a Prep of 55 for the base. They landed against a force only marginally stronger then WAKE ISLAND. Yes--there is that FA Unit but that is about the ONLY difference.

Wake usually falls when a pair of of strong SNLF or Naval Guard units hit it. With the Forts at 2 instead of 1, I landed with a force 5-6 times that strength. What CRAP! Add to that then the second Landing of 2 small base forces and an Artillery Regiment then, finally this Brigade.

I rarely get mad at the game anymore but this is insanity. One little garrision with, as detailed above, less then a dozen good-sized guns have managed to kill 40,000 Japanese and sink about 20 AP/AK. I cannot believe it. If I say anything more, this will be appropriately censored by our good webmasters...

As others have said, landing into a coastal defence of 40+ 5 and 6" guns with absolutely no naval gunfire support does not make for a well prepared and executed invasion.

I'm sorry but even if you suffered from bad die rolls you also screwed up yourself.

edit: Anyway, what is your excuse of landing a full division without ANY preliminary bombardment whatsoever. Neither from sea or air.

If you didn't have any carriers or surface warships available then why did you invade such a far away island in the first place, what if the allies had had a cruiser squadron lurking around, or what if the carriers were just 180 miles away, or what if they had greater forces on the island than you expected.... oh wait.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

You MIGHT want to not land unsupported in the teeth of undisrupted coastal defense guns in the future.

Totally unrealistic? Look at the first invasion of Wake. That was what, 3 guns if I recall correctly? Japs learned a lesson and came back with a little more force the 2nd time. Hmmmmmmmm....

Unrealistic?

Wake showed how poor Japan was at amphibious operations. They're successes were almost always against unprepared or non-existent defenders. Wake's defenders were prepared, but very small. A large enough force crushed them the second time.

Bill

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Wake showed how poor Japan was at amphibious operations. They're successes were almost always against unprepared or non-existent defenders. Wake's defenders were prepared, but very small. A large enough force crushed them the second time.

Bill

I'd have to disagree with that. Wake showed what could happen when an ill prepared "2nd Team" force with inadequate resources and support tries to assault an alerted and well defended atoll. In terms of the Japanese' successes, the reason why they were against non existant or lightly defended areas was due to doctrine. The Japanese were arguably the most proficient at Amphibious "Operations" which by definition are operations designed to be conducted against lightly or undefended locales. Japan, like the UK were unenthusiastic regarding the viability of Amphibious "Assault" [The taking of moderate to heavily defended coastlines] and thus didn't develop a detailed doctrine to conduct it. Only the USMC felt it was viable and it eventually did become viable once the kinks were worked out and the tools were developed to support it. (primary advanced landing craft that could fight their way in with a decent chance of survival.)

[rtrapasso]

Even a single 75 mm unmolested artillery piece wreaked havoc on the IJ landings on Corregidor and almost caused failure of that landing. An intact artillery regiment with 155 mm guns would have been hell on any landing force without effective counterfire from ships with large caliber guns.

[Nikademus]

being proficient doesn't mean things can't still go wrong. I seem to recall the 1st dedicated USMC attempt at Lunga was full of enough Snafu's that it was commented that it had been a good thing the landing was unopposed.

Corregidor i wouldn't exactly consider an Amphib Op but an Assault and things did go wrong for the Japanese in spades. Despite a fierce bombardment Homma's men made a key error in not accounting for the swift current encountered and thus missed their intended landing site by more than a mile with the result that they landed in the lap of a USMC Marine Battalion which took full advantage of a rising moon to hit them with everything they had. Only 600 men of the 2000 man force scrambled ashore but they did succeed in securing the Eastern end of the island.

[Big B]

This all may be...

But I think the original point is that John unfortunately ran into a 'buzzsaw' that wasn't adequately supressed.

[Nikademus]

I agree. Though the "trick" has been around for a while, i think there's still a large % of players out there who don't realize that one can finaggle the big guns of the BB into their invasion TF's which really do do wonders to suppress nasty CD's and beach facing arty.[via the "escort" TF formation] A refresh of the Atoll rules also sounded in order from what he described.

[BrucePowers]

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: castor troy




Another huge advantage of the US was that all of its artillery was self-propelled or motorized. Germany had self-propelled artillery, but never enough. And it's towed artillery was typically horse-drawn.

The figure I remember reading was that the German army was never more than 60 percent mechanized. I cannot quote a source,