Ju 87 for RHS-EOS?

[Historiker]

When one knows about the abilitys of the Ju87, the Japanese DBs can in my eyes only be describet as crap. Their bomb load is just a joke, when you see the Ju87D carry a single 1800kg bomb.
As Japan tested the Ju87, why not add the Ju87 to Japan for EOS?

[el cid again]

Well - the dive bombers of Japan certainly lack for bomb capacity.

But Japan is a Pacific power - and it has different operational military requirements than Germany had. By Japanese standards, German aircraft lack range - enough to make you cry. And that with "normal" bombloads, never mind maximum ones. In fact, one of these dive bombers you lament is derived from a German one!

A technical answer is that we lack the slots. Whatever we put in, we have to take something out to get the slot for it.

A political answer is that Japan didn't try to import a lot of German dive bombers. If I remember right, the Ju-87 is an exception - and it led to one of the Japanese types.

Note that the Ki-48 II is a dive bomber - and it also has armor protection. It outperforms any variation of the Ju-87 in terms of range.

We could, however, look at this as a general topic - if there is interest. It would require some new art and time. But it is possible. RHS is not cast in concrete.

[okami]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Well - the dive bombers of Japan certainly lack for bomb capacity.

But Japan is a Pacific power - and it has different operational military requirements than Japan had. By Japanese standards, German aircraft lack range - enough to make you cry. And that with "normal" bombloads, never mind maximum ones. In fact, one of these dive bombers you lament is derived from a German one!

A technical answer is that we lack the slots. Whatever we put in, we have to take something out to get the slot for it.

A political answer is that Japan didn't try to import a lot of German dive bombers. If I remember right, the Ju-87 is an exception - and it led to one of the Japanese types.

Note that the Ki-48 II is a dive bomber - and it also has armor protection. It outperforms any variation of the Ju-87 in terms of range.

We could, however, look at this as a general topic - if there is interest. It would require some new art and time. But it is possible. RHS is not cast in concrete.

Just give the Japanese Rudel. Make him a Val pilot skill 100 and let him loose.[:D][:D][:D]

[Historiker]

I know Sid, I know...
But Ju87D with full bomb load had a range of 1000km - and that isn't that much less than the Japs had...
Slots? perhaps one could combine with Ida with the Ki 30/32 as I don't expect someone will build it after all - it's just there in the beginning.

As far as I've understood, the EOS scenario means, that Japan has done and does evereything possible to improve it's war abilities. Wouldn't a good Jap commander love a divebomber which carries a havier bomb that several other divebombers together?
Just imagine what a 1800kg bomb means even to a BB - Rudel hit the Marat only with a 1000kg one and it had already been devastating...

[el cid again]

Ki-30 and Ki-32 are the principle light bombers of JAAF and - indeed - already two different almost identical aircraft combined. I do not see a way to get rid of it - it exists in numbers - more than any other bomber - and it is way too important to get rid of.

The Ki-51 is a wierd modification of one of these planes - a proposal by a NAVY captain for JAAF! It is cut down, fitted to dive, and rather successful. It also served as a trainer and an observation/recon plane. We don't like it for lack of load - but it was rather good in its day.

I will look a bit more into this. FYI Ernst Hoenkel spend some years in Japan at Hatachi KKK, in Hitachi, which is also a place! The He-100 was licenced for production in Japan - as were some other types not actually mass produced.

[Historiker]

Yeah, the slots...
Perhaps that's the big news for witp? Doubeling all slots?

If I've understood the sense of EOS - an enhanced Japan within it theoretical possibilities - I think the Ju87 has to be in it, as it is so much stronger than the Jap DBs...

One more thing to EOS - disregarding the questinon of slots:
As you grant wide controle over Japan, i.e. the possibility to provide army units with navy planes, shouldn't there be the possibility to produce more ships which weren't built IRL?
As the Naval Yards still have to produce every ship, i could be possible to add aditional CVs, BBs, CA/Ls and DDs, no? They wouldn't help anything unless the player decides to halt other ships instead. So one might to decide not to produce SS to get some additional CVs, no?

Of course, the slots, I know... [;)], but if one decides to play EOS as allied, one already decides to  face a much stronger Jap then in other scenarios - so why not give the possibilite for some new big ships?

The possibility to convert every bigger and faster merchant ship to a CVE would also be an option, no?

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Yeah, the slots...
Perhaps that's the big news for witp? Doubeling all slots?

If I've understood the sense of EOS - an enhanced Japan within it theoretical possibilities - I think the Ju87 has to be in it, as it is so much stronger than the Jap DBs...

One more thing to EOS - disregarding the questinon of slots:
As you grant wide controle over Japan, i.e. the possibility to provide army units with navy planes, shouldn't there be the possibility to produce more ships which weren't built IRL?

1) Many army units use navy planes, and vice versa - and many may upgrade "across the line." To this end such planes have BOTH army and navy designations - A6M2/Ki-65 for example. But it is not universal - nor unlimited - nor totally under my control. Some of it code just does not allow. Some of it is deliberately one service or the other - for strong institutional reasons.

2) You get some DIFFERENT ships - but there is NO WAY to produce MORE ships. This because first of all it is impossible IRL - there is only so much steel, so much yard capacity, so much engine capacity. And also because we have no more slots. That said, note I vastly increased the number of ships in all forms of RHS by using multiple ship units - mainly for small vessels. Landing craft come in units up to 48. PT boats in divisions of 3. PCs in divisions of 2. Tiny SC transports are pairs and SD transports are triples. So we REPRESENT more ships - but ALL are historical. In BBO family you get a different set of ships - and in EOS different still - but never any more ships. Because there are no more slots - and because Japan could never build any more anyway - ever - for the reasons given above. We use every last old fashioned resiprocating steam engine, every possible steam turbine, every possible diesel engine, and every other option there was/is - and you are not going to get more ships because - well there are no more engines to drive them. We also use yard capacity carefully calculated - I love this sort of thing and have a complex model of Japanese shipyards including about 120 wooden boatyards - and I track every graving dock (or equivelant automated building way) in country - a system developed for a more elaborate game where players were permitted to pick what ships to build.



As the Naval Yards still have to produce every ship, i could be possible to add aditional CVs, BBs, CA/Ls and DDs, no? They wouldn't help anything unless the player decides to halt other ships instead. So one might to decide not to produce SS to get some additional CVs, no?


REPLY: It is more complex than that. There are two gigantic private yards that can build big warships - even CV or BB. And navy yards that cannot build CV or BB. Yards come in many flavors. But - no - there is no extra capacity. Japan had to expand yards to do what it tried to do (although it wasted that effort - four slips were built at four shipyards for Yamato Class BB - and while all were laid down - not all were completed - even for a single ship!) Anyway - I have all this stuff and force alternative programs to account for steel, yards, engines, major weapons, etc.

Of course, the slots, I know... [;)], but if one decides to play EOS as allied, one already decides to  face a much stronger Jap then in other scenarios - so why not give the possibilite for some new big ships?

The possibility to convert every bigger and faster merchant ship to a CVE would also be an option, no?

If you want a still stronger Japan - try EEO (out in pre release format) - it assumes different planning since the end of 1937/beginning of 1938. So Japan can invest its steel differently than it did - same for aluminum - etc. It cannot know what it did not know then, but it can coordinate better inside the context of what it did know and what it did have.

If you want a Japan more along the lines of Japanese thinking before the war and early in the war, try BBO. While you get fewer carriers, you get more gunships - and so do the Allies. Japan may be better off not facing an enemy so air oriented - and not building a class of 50 CVEs for example - nor a huge number of Essex class ships.

[Dili]

1800kg were seldom used. For D version comon weapon laod was 500kg w/ drop tanks or 2x250kg. 500kg were the weapons that hit CV Illustrious in Mediterranean. For B it was 1x250kg+4x50kg

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Dili

1800kg were seldom used. For D version comon weapon laod was 500kg w/ drop tanks or 2x250kg. 500kg were the weapons that hit CV Illustrious in Mediterranean. For B it was 1x250kg+4x50kg

Quite correct. But a Judy has a max load of 815 pounds. A D4Y2 1234 pounds. A Ki-51 551 pounds. And a Ki-48 II 1764 pounds. Not very large. OTH the Ju-87 is not really a carrier aircraft either - not ideal for Japan. Right now in EOS we have three different versions of Ki-45 - a, b and II - all with 1102 pound bomb loads. In CVO/BBO we also have three versions of Ki-45 - but the third one is the c - a night fighter/intruder version - with the same bomb load. All are de facto dive bombers - if you want to think of them in that way. For that matter, the Ki-43 II is a rather fabulous dive bomber - also with 1102 pound max load. There are a number of later war fighters and bombers that are even better - Frank and Randy for example. And the A6M7 is technically a fighter meant to serve as a dive bomber from lighter carriers unable to handle big, new bombers.

The most available slots to exchange are Ki-45 II and Ki-48 II - the first added because Nemo wanted a better attack aircraft - the latter because Mifune did. I don't regard either as impressive by the time you get them.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Dili

1800kg were seldom used. For D version comon weapon laod was 500kg w/ drop tanks or 2x250kg. 500kg were the weapons that hit CV Illustrious in Mediterranean. For B it was 1x250kg+4x50kg

AFAIK, the usual bomb load was 1000kg fron the Ju87D and the 1800kg were used rarely. But, if a Ju87 gets added to the game, the Japs controle it and not the Luftwaffe, so I see no reason why they wouldn't use it within the limits of it's maximum bombload.


Thx for the explanation, Sid.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ORIGINAL: Dili

1800kg were seldom used. For D version comon weapon laod was 500kg w/ drop tanks or 2x250kg. 500kg were the weapons that hit CV Illustrious in Mediterranean. For B it was 1x250kg+4x50kg

AFAIK, the usual bomb load was 1000kg fron the Ju87D and the 1800kg were used rarely. But, if a Ju87 gets added to the game, the Japs controle it and not the Luftwaffe, so I see no reason why they wouldn't use it within the limits of it's maximum bombload.


Thx for the explanation, Sid.

Japan would NOT use it at max load. First, there is the problem of limited weapon production. Second, the problem they believe lower loads are effective. JAAF would load it up with 50kg or 100 kg bombs - probably. And indeed - for soft targets - they would work better than 2 x 250 kg bombs. Third, the navy has the problem of range: you NEED range to go after naval targets - and range means a lower bomb load.

[el cid again]

The D1A1 is a development of the He-66.

The D4He1 is a development of the He-118.
So is the D4Y1.
So is the Ki-47.

The Ju-87A was licenced for production in Japan in July 1941.
The Ju-87B was available for licencing in Japan in July 1941.
The Ju-87D could have been licenced in July 1942.
All would be called Ki-52 (I, II and IV if all were produced)
Might be D4Ju3 if JNAF.

The Ju-87C was the only German carrier dive bomber development.
Only 5 were converted. It was licencable in July, 1941 - and would serve
as Ki-87 III if JAAF.

Level bomber options:

He-111H6 in July, 1941
Ju-88A4 in July, 1941
Ju-188E in October, 1943.
P-108B in February, 1942 (Italian 4 engine)
Ar-234B in July, 1944 (jet bomber)
He-177A5 in September, 1943 (German heavy bomber)
Me-262 (attack bomber format) in September, 1944
BR-20 (retired from JAAF service, but legal to buy or copy) in July 1941
FW-200V10 - LICENCED in July, 1941 [DEVELOPMENT PAID FOR BY JAPAN]
FW-200C3 licencable in August, 1941
FW-200C4 licencable in August, 1942
FW-200C8 licencable in August, 1944 (missile bomber)
Ju-290A licencable in February, 1943 (German Heavy bomber)
Ju-290B licencable in February, 1944

RHS already tested the Me-264 - assuming Japan had invested in that plane instead of the FW-200 - and it turns out to use way too many supply points ! Which is true- if supply points represent avgas. It was planned IN GERMANY to have a run of only 60 machines - too expensive to mass produce. Japan would have to field even fewer if it was to feed them! But it is a superb plane - available to enter service around late 1942.

Late in the war Japan bought licences for Ju-390s, and one may well have ended up in Japan. At least 3 made round trips to Manchukuo - with Italian crews - and there is strong circumstantial and documentary and testimonial evidence Gen Kammler went to Japan on one in 1945. The circumstantial evidence is - we never found one of the planes. That corresponds to testimony and documents saying one flew to Japan. But I don't believe in Japanese production of these monsters in 1945 - or any other time.

A really wierd footnote to historical Japanese bombers is that JAAF procured German four engine heavy bombers (to take out Fort Drum) LONG BEFORE WWII. Three were still airworthy in 1941, and flew in a air demonstration in that year. These were the Ki-20 (or Type 92 Heavy Bomber] - a monsterous conversion of a German (G-38) transport - using diesel engines!

Finally, the JAAF also operated B-17Es - as aggressor units - for training fighter pilots - at least 7 of them - captured mainly at Del Monte, Mindinao, the Philippines.

[Historiker]

Hmm...
Ju-88, Me-262 as interceptor, Ar-234, He-177 and Fw-190 would be nice to improve the capabilities of the Japanese AF.
Me-110 or me-410 might be nice for intercepting 4es and as NF, too [;)]

[el cid again]

Then we could call it GITP!!!

I do not see you jumping on my list with recommendations. IF you look at the Ju-87 - you may end up agreeing with JAAF - which got the rights to build it - and decided not to. They (or JNAF) also had rights to Me-109, He-100, FW-200, and a cool recon plane. But failed to adopt any - because they liked other options.

And did you catch that the He-118 was the basis for Val - and two other options? Judy was a variation of Val. Sairen was a variation of Judy. So in a sense, He-118 was the basis for them all.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Then we could call it GITP!!!

I do not see you jumping on my list with recommendations. IF you look at the Ju-87 - you may end up agreeing with JAAF - which got the rights to build it - and decided not to. They (or JNAF) also had rights to Me-109, He-100, FW-200, and a cool recon plane. But failed to adopt any - because they liked other options.

And did you catch that the He-118 was the basis for Val - and two other options? Judy was a variation of Val. Sairen was a variation of Judy. So in a sense, He-118 was the basis for them all.

The He118 was not the basis for the Val, it was used by the japanese as the basis for the Judy. The Val had its origins in a 1936 specification

[DuckofTindalos]

Not so much a basis for the Judy as an inspiration for it, in that it had retractable undercarriage and carried its bomb internally. The He-118 was useless as a dive bomber, since it could only dive at a 50 degree angle.

[Dili]

P-108B only got operational in June 42 and only a few were made.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Not so much a basis for the Judy as an inspiration for it, in that it had retractable undercarriage and carried its bomb internally. The He-118 was useless as a dive bomber, since it could only dive at a 50 degree angle.

Perhaps you should study bombing. Glide bombing at angles far below 50 degrees is as accurate as dive bombing is. It is now a preferred technique - while dive bombing is not.

[DuckofTindalos]

That's not the way it was done before WWII, however, which is what we're talking about here. WWII dive bombers dove at 80-90 degrees; I stick by my previous post that the He-118 would have been useless as a dive bomber.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Dili

P-108B only got operational in June 42 and only a few were made.

Quite so. And if it were licenced in 1942 it would not have jigs, drawings, maybe prototypes sent to Japan, completely run through the conversion to Japanese production methods, tooled up and produced until a later year. Just to build a four engine aircraft in Japan takes about half a year! AFTER the line is tooled up. AFTER the design is converted to Japanese methods. AFTER sub contractors have made the sub assemblies.

More fatal IMHO is that the aircraft is not that long legged. Like the Condor, this isn't an ideal solution for JNAF requirements. It costs four engines to build - and it isn't as effective as a good two engine bomber.