What would you think of this PBEM house rule?

[String]

No, i'm not planning to start a PBEM anytime soon, but an idea did occur to me while reading these forums.

With PDU only allies can change upgrade paths, with the exception of japanese carrier squadrons on accelerated carriers having aircraft types not yet in production.

The usual no 2e to 4e rule can be applied to allies as well.

Might prevent the insane number of Tonies and Tojos flying around by september 1942 we usually see in PBEM games, while keeping the flexibility which the PDU was initially created for.

So would any japanese player agree to this rule, or this rule with modifications?

[trollelite]

IMO only some guy who don't care about quit at will would agree.... 

[ctangus]

Even with a no 2E -> 4E rule, I think that would be too unbalanced in favor of the allies. Better just to keep PDU off otherwise starting in 9/43 the Japanese would be faced with nothing but Jugs & P-38Js against Oscars & Zekes. Now that I'm thinking about it - it would probably get out of hand well before then.

I think I understand what you want to see, though. The flexibility that PDU provides without a grossly ahistoric balance of forces. Maybe a rule limiting the number of upgrades to a next-generation model? (E.g. Oscar -> Tony or P-39 -> P-38.) I'm thinking out loud here a little bit... One or two a month?

[BB56]

Another possible way to control the numbers is:
FB can only upgrade to another FB -> P39/P400 can upgrade to the FB version of P40 or P47, but cannot upgrade to P38 or other Fighter.
Same with Fighters - can only upgrade to another Fighter and not an FB.
 
The exception here is upgrading to a different model of the same plane - P40B -> P40E -> P40N.
 
I only play the AI and I use the above rules to limit the number of next generation planes that are in use.
 
I also limit my 2E's to upgrading only to a different model of the same plane.  Exception here is B26 can upgrade to B25.  In stock, Ventura can upgrade to PB4Y as the range of the Ventura makes it less than useless.   I'm playing Big B now, so once I get the Ventura, if it has a better range I won't change it to the PB4Y.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: String

No, i'm not planning to start a PBEM anytime soon, but an idea did occur to me while reading these forums.

With PDU only allies can change upgrade paths, with the exception of japanese carrier squadrons on accelerated carriers having aircraft types not yet in production.

The usual no 2e to 4e rule can be applied to allies as well.

Might prevent the insane number of Tonies and Tojos flying around by september 1942 we usually see in PBEM games, while keeping the flexibility which the PDU was initially created for.

So would any japanese player agree to this rule, or this rule with modifications?

[&:]

you are joking right?

I don't see any difference with playing PDU off... oh wait, i can see now. Japan is stuck with Oscars but Allies can upgrade to P-38G, Js etc....

i can accept that... but i will choose Allies this time[:D]

[trollelite]

No one is against any such restriction, Just please apply them to allies only... Or you take Japanese side.

[bradfordkay]

In our CHS game we went for PDUs on, but Chez (Japan) pledged not to increase his industry any more than doubling it. We're hoping that this will prevent the ahistorical imbalance that has been seen in some PBEMs (due to an inability to increase US production to match the Japanese).

Of course, it would probably work better if I could manage to shoot large numbers of his aircraft out of the sky...[8|]

[castor troy]

The best way to not even have to discuss such things is when the Allied is doing his sub war in the way it is supposed, then there won´t be so much oil/ressources to outproduce the US. You then have trouble to even produce what you need in 44.

Yeah I know, "all my subs get sunk by Sallies"! Have a hr about the number of IJA bombers on ASW and voilà...

[ChezDaJez]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

In our CHS game we went for PDUs on, but Chez (Japan) pledged not to increase his industry any more than doubling it. We're hoping that this will prevent the ahistorical imbalance that has been seen in some PBEMs (due to an inability to increase US production to match the Japanese).

Of course, it would probably work better if I could manage to shoot large numbers of his aircraft out of the sky...[8|]

Unfortunately with my total lack of resources due to a damaged SRA, I am unable to expand my economy without crashing it... we're in Oct 42 and I've crashed it twice just increasing Nakajima engine production!

Bit of intel for ya, Brad... I'm still producing less than 1000 aircraft a month.

Chez

[Hoplosternum]

A better restriction would be on the numbers of Tonys and Tojos that could be produced, at least in 1942 and early 1943, but let the Japanese player put them where he likes. It is the ability of the IJ player to produce 100s per month of all his best fighter types early on that causes the issue here.

The allies can never do this as they cannot expand production. It takes quite a while to upgrade just the fighter groups that without PDUs on require P 37s for upgrade to be upgraded. Japan has the ability to upgrade its fighters far quicker.

And it can nearly always afford to. Japan can turn off bomber / other plane production (and their engines) for a while if the economy is feeling the strain. They are of limited use if the IJ player cannot protect them and their airfields. Your first few hundred plane builds should always be fighters of the most modern types as Japan.

[String]

ORIGINAL: pauk

ORIGINAL: String

No, i'm not planning to start a PBEM anytime soon, but an idea did occur to me while reading these forums.

With PDU only allies can change upgrade paths, with the exception of japanese carrier squadrons on accelerated carriers having aircraft types not yet in production.

The usual no 2e to 4e rule can be applied to allies as well.

Might prevent the insane number of Tonies and Tojos flying around by september 1942 we usually see in PBEM games, while keeping the flexibility which the PDU was initially created for.

So would any japanese player agree to this rule, or this rule with modifications?

[&:]

you are joking right?

I don't see any difference with playing PDU off... oh wait, i can see now. Japan is stuck with Oscars but Allies can upgrade to P-38G, Js etc....

i can accept that... but i will choose Allies this time[:D]

The problem here is that the allies are limited by their production figures, while the japanese are not. The allies will be stuck with that 40 P40E's per month while the japanese routinely spew out Tonies and Tojos in the hundreds, not to mention converting most of the naval airforce into Georges in 1944.

And no, allied production figures won't be sufficient to convert all fighters to P38's or for that matter, any other highgrade fighter.

[String]

Hmm, but how about this rule:

Both sides can use PDU only for downgrading. The unit must remain on its historical path. Units can change between aircraft types utilizing the same airframe. (F6F5 and F6F5N for example, or P-39 and P400)

[Andy Mac]

I just dont think I will play a PDU game again so its simple for me !!!!

[2ndACR]

BAH, all the negativity. Since you know the Japanese will train up his air force bombing isolated troops (not dot base bombing but at least flying combat missions) you just have to do the same. Like it or not, the knife cuts both ways on this one. If he does it, you do it. Otherwise, you are doomed to defeat. Never fight a war one handed.

[Andy Mac]

And as a matter of principal I refuse to do it so I will be fighting one handed [:D][:D][:D]

[niceguy2005]

I'm getting quite disillusioned with house rules in general.  I think the best way to go is to talk over game play VERY well with your opponent before you start...I mean really beat it to death...only then are you really likely to get the sort of game you want.

[2ndACR]

It is admirable, but I prefer to give in other areas. I will give the Japanese player carte blanche after turn 1 do do his worst. After all, I get re-spawns and he does not. My units basically arrive at 100% and his do not. It can take months to build alot of his re-inforcements to 100% (ground forces).

But training is training.

I use the smallest amount of house rules I can. See the AAR section in my AAR against Hawker for the limit of them.

I do not HR PT's as the Allied player, because I hate the things and do not plan on building any more than there are at start.

[veji1]

I think the best compromise would be to mod the scenario so that more of the japanese fighters can be converted to good planes, but still keep it sort of balanced :

Instead of having 60 percent of OscarsII and 20/20 of Tojo and Tony, make it 33% of each, with a good chunk of them all converting to Franks, Same for IJN LBA...

That way you still keep outdated planes but make it a bit more balanced... It is a pretty simple mod and is as good a compromise as PDU.

[trollelite]

To allow Japs produce excessive number of AC and other things clearly indicate incompetence, and try to use HR to make one's opponent eat the result of one's own incompetence is simply disgusting.

Yeah, he should not produce so many things, perhaps you should let half of your big fleet rot away in the harbor too? At least to abandon respawn right? Why cannot you have this confidence??

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: trollelite

To allow Japs produce excessive number of AC and other things clearly indicate incompetence, and try to use HR to make one's opponent eat the result of one's own incompetence is simply disgusting.

Yeah, he should not produce so many things, perhaps you should let half of your big fleet rot away in the harbor too? At least to abandon respawn right? Why cannot you have this confidence??

Several folks have tried to get rid of the respawn rule with mods with mixed success... the slot shortage makes it difficult to do things like this.


EDIT: Most Allied players (i think) dislike the respawn rule even more than the Japanese.