At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
- ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
I have re-started my game with John III after a month of playing Big B's mod. I got off on a tangent over a week ago as I had told 1EyedJack that we would play Nemo's "Empire Ablaze." 1EyedJack was my first PBEM opponent over 1 1/2 year ago and I had stopped the game due to constant computer problems. Thus, I still owed him a game.
After looking at the map (RHS level 7), I fell in "lust" of the shiny red sportscar. [:D] The map for level 7 is...."sweet." [&o][&o] I asked John III if he would consider switching over to RHS and he agreed. After one false start (I think John's computer skills showed up and he picked the wrong scenario), I have just sent him back turn 1. This map has taken Andrew's ground breaking channels on the map to its logical conclusion. There are various channels around the bottom map edge and up part of the sides that you can now go from San Fran to Australia through the channels. Thus, if NZ is captured, you are not cut off from Australia or India. I will try to post screen shot on a regular basis to show off this map.
The biggest thing for an Allied player is there is very little "free" supply/fuel. [:(] I have to move resources/oil from point "A" to "B." If not, my economy will be very inefficient. [X(] Second, almost all Allied plane production is on map. So, per Sid, I need to turn off repair of air frames that are not due for production until the first day of availability. Thus, they will ramp up vs. coming in at full force.
HOUSE RULES - RHS
Negotiable:
Non-historical 1st turn: The Japanese "may" move LCU's from their historical start positions to "major" bases throughout the Pacific (Truk, Kwajalein, Palau, Saigon, Camranh Bay, Formosa, Home Islands, etc.) From there they can be sent on turn 2 to invade where ever.
Multiple port attacks allowed on turn 1 & 2, but must be based on a CV/CVL/CVE. Thus, KB & mini-KB may be used in combinations non-historical.
450 planes total in one hex from CV/CVL/CVE's. No Allied "death stars" in late war stages, nor the KB plus "death star" by mid-42 when they get more CV's. OR may have CAP set to 50% instead of a plane limit.
ASW TFs cannot exceed 6 ships
PT Boats may not be included in TFs with other ships (exception: when transferring between bases - using the extra ships as portable fuel sources. PT TF may have a max of 6 ships in it 1 PT TF for a port size 0 to 4; 2 PT TF for a port size 5 to 8; and 3 PT TF for a port size 9 and 10.
No creating Barges/PT at bases smaller than size 3. This is allowed for river ports smaller than size 3
No Allied CV Capable air units on CV's until 1/44 - designed to keep Marine Fighter groups off CV's
Allied player may only give orders to Allied warships (not AK/AP) already at sea on turn 1
No units of the Kwangtung HQ may be moved out of the area without first paying the applicable PP costs (Land or Air units)
No 4e level-bombing below 11,000' when set for naval attack. B-29's are not allowed to be set on naval attack.
Invasions only on base or dot hexes.
Cadre evacuations allowed.
Single-ship TFs are allowed to the end of 12/41. Afterwards, there must be two or more. This is to compensate for the game mechanics usually allowing 1 ship TF not being attacked
"Training" your squadrons in China is fine. The Allies may use "same-hex supply training" of bomber squadrons
No Japanese LCU naval invasions north of Tavoy until Singapore falls.
"Be realistic" with cutting off troops for surrender. A whole Btn would be sufficient to cut off a unit, but a few squads = no.
If you don't attack the Soviets on turn 1, please give 2 weeks lead time before attacking the Soviets (if you're going to do it), so I can come up with my own defensive posture. If you want to surprise the Soviets as well, you're welcome to beat the snot out of them with surprise on turn 1.
If you don't attack the Soviets on turn 1 (and also ambush their fleet), Stalin requires that he be allowed to relocate the Soviet fleet in a few weeks (when things have calmed down a little, you'd need to have nothing set to NavAtk around the Soviet ports so that I can move the fleet).
Allied Combat TFs at sea at start may issue new orders, but may not load troops on turn 1.
Sub evac = ok. Sub invasion = not ok.
No city attacks in China for either side until 1/43 as historically there wasn’t major bombing outside of AF/ports.
No "shock with pursuit" attacks.
Play a "gentleman's game". If you think it might be gamey, it probably is, so don't do it.
Any others, please let me know.
Now to see what carnage John creates. [;)]
After looking at the map (RHS level 7), I fell in "lust" of the shiny red sportscar. [:D] The map for level 7 is...."sweet." [&o][&o] I asked John III if he would consider switching over to RHS and he agreed. After one false start (I think John's computer skills showed up and he picked the wrong scenario), I have just sent him back turn 1. This map has taken Andrew's ground breaking channels on the map to its logical conclusion. There are various channels around the bottom map edge and up part of the sides that you can now go from San Fran to Australia through the channels. Thus, if NZ is captured, you are not cut off from Australia or India. I will try to post screen shot on a regular basis to show off this map.
The biggest thing for an Allied player is there is very little "free" supply/fuel. [:(] I have to move resources/oil from point "A" to "B." If not, my economy will be very inefficient. [X(] Second, almost all Allied plane production is on map. So, per Sid, I need to turn off repair of air frames that are not due for production until the first day of availability. Thus, they will ramp up vs. coming in at full force.
HOUSE RULES - RHS
Negotiable:
Non-historical 1st turn: The Japanese "may" move LCU's from their historical start positions to "major" bases throughout the Pacific (Truk, Kwajalein, Palau, Saigon, Camranh Bay, Formosa, Home Islands, etc.) From there they can be sent on turn 2 to invade where ever.
Multiple port attacks allowed on turn 1 & 2, but must be based on a CV/CVL/CVE. Thus, KB & mini-KB may be used in combinations non-historical.
450 planes total in one hex from CV/CVL/CVE's. No Allied "death stars" in late war stages, nor the KB plus "death star" by mid-42 when they get more CV's. OR may have CAP set to 50% instead of a plane limit.
ASW TFs cannot exceed 6 ships
PT Boats may not be included in TFs with other ships (exception: when transferring between bases - using the extra ships as portable fuel sources. PT TF may have a max of 6 ships in it 1 PT TF for a port size 0 to 4; 2 PT TF for a port size 5 to 8; and 3 PT TF for a port size 9 and 10.
No creating Barges/PT at bases smaller than size 3. This is allowed for river ports smaller than size 3
No Allied CV Capable air units on CV's until 1/44 - designed to keep Marine Fighter groups off CV's
Allied player may only give orders to Allied warships (not AK/AP) already at sea on turn 1
No units of the Kwangtung HQ may be moved out of the area without first paying the applicable PP costs (Land or Air units)
No 4e level-bombing below 11,000' when set for naval attack. B-29's are not allowed to be set on naval attack.
Invasions only on base or dot hexes.
Cadre evacuations allowed.
Single-ship TFs are allowed to the end of 12/41. Afterwards, there must be two or more. This is to compensate for the game mechanics usually allowing 1 ship TF not being attacked
"Training" your squadrons in China is fine. The Allies may use "same-hex supply training" of bomber squadrons
No Japanese LCU naval invasions north of Tavoy until Singapore falls.
"Be realistic" with cutting off troops for surrender. A whole Btn would be sufficient to cut off a unit, but a few squads = no.
If you don't attack the Soviets on turn 1, please give 2 weeks lead time before attacking the Soviets (if you're going to do it), so I can come up with my own defensive posture. If you want to surprise the Soviets as well, you're welcome to beat the snot out of them with surprise on turn 1.
If you don't attack the Soviets on turn 1 (and also ambush their fleet), Stalin requires that he be allowed to relocate the Soviet fleet in a few weeks (when things have calmed down a little, you'd need to have nothing set to NavAtk around the Soviet ports so that I can move the fleet).
Allied Combat TFs at sea at start may issue new orders, but may not load troops on turn 1.
Sub evac = ok. Sub invasion = not ok.
No city attacks in China for either side until 1/43 as historically there wasn’t major bombing outside of AF/ports.
No "shock with pursuit" attacks.
Play a "gentleman's game". If you think it might be gamey, it probably is, so don't do it.
Any others, please let me know.
Now to see what carnage John creates. [;)]
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[/center]- ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
Massacre at Pearl?!?
Here are the results of the first turn (PI and Pearl only). I will not be posting Combat Reports as a rule of thumb, but I wanted others to see what happened. I will soon run the Combat Animation and make further comments.
Day Air attack on Cagayan [Mndno] , at 43,59
Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 17
G4M1 Betty x 23
Allied aircraft
no flights
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 2000 feet
11 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 3000 feet
11 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 2000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 2000 feet
6 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 3000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila/Cavite [PH] , at 43,52
Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 6
D3A2 Val x 14
B4Y1 Jean x 8
B5M/B5N Kate x 30
Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 8
Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged
B4Y1 Jean: 4 destroyed
B5M/B5N Kate: 5 destroyed, 10 damaged
Allied Ships
AVD Childs, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Permit, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD John D. Ford, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Palawan, Bomb hits 2, on fire
SS Shark, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Sailfish, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Perch, Bomb hits 1
SS Pickerel, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Sealion, Bomb hits 1
SS S-37, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Stingray, Bomb hits 1, on fire
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B4Y1 Jean bombing at 5000 feet
8 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
17 x B5M/B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
11 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila/Cavite [PH] , at 43,52
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 87
Ki-48-I Lily x 24
Ki-21-II Sally x 15
Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 8
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-I Lily: 4 damaged
Ki-21-II Sally: 3 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 11 destroyed
PBY-5 Catalina: 4 destroyed
Allied ground losses:
1128 casualties reported
Guns lost 26
Vehicles lost 11
Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 35
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
9 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Angeles/Clark [PH] , at 43,51
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 96
G3M2 Nell x 47
G4M1 Betty x 54
Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann x 29
Allied aircraft
P-26A x 4
P-35A Hawk x 5
P-40B Tomahawk x 3
P-40E Warhawk x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 1 damaged
G3M2 Nell: 2 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
P-26A: 8 destroyed
P-35A Hawk: 10 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 11 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 12 destroyed
B-17D Fortress: 4 destroyed
Allied ground losses:
2384 casualties reported
Guns lost 54
Vehicles lost 38
Airbase hits 47
Airbase supply hits 11
Runway hits 270
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
8 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
4 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
15 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
6 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
5 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
8 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
13 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
6 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pearl Harbor [Oahu] , at 114,72
21 Torpedoes!!! OUCH!!!
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 66
D3A2 Val x 108
B5M/B5N Kate x 117
Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 4
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 8 destroyed, 3 damaged
D3A2 Val: 11 destroyed, 16 damaged
B5M/B5N Kate: 33 destroyed, 31 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Tomahawk: 27 destroyed
B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed
PBY-5 Catalina: 20 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 6 destroyed
B-18A/B-23/F-2 Bolo: 10 destroyed
P-36A Mohawk: 8 destroyed
SBD-3/4 Dauntless: 5 destroyed
C-32/36/39/40+BT-32: 5 destroyed
A-20B Boston: 6 destroyed
C-47/R4D-5 Skytrain: 2 destroyed
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 3 destroyed
Allied Ships
BB California, Bomb hits 8, on fire
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 3, on fire
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, on fire
DD Ward, Bomb hits 1
DD Monaghan, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Downes, Bomb hits 1
DD Case, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
DD Dewey, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 11, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 14, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
SS Tautog, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Detroit, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AD Dobbin, Bomb hits 1
CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA New Orleans, Torpedo hits 1
CL Helena, Bomb hits 1
DM Ramsay, Bomb hits 1
DD Schley, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
Allied ground losses:
11 casualties reported
Airbase hits 29
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 73
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x A6M2 Zeke attacking at 100 feet
17 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
21 x B5M/B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet
12 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
10 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
18 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
17 x B5M/B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet
26 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
22 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
24 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
14 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Day Air attack on Cagayan [Mndno] , at 43,59
Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 17
G4M1 Betty x 23
Allied aircraft
no flights
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 2000 feet
11 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 3000 feet
11 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 2000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 2000 feet
6 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 3000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila/Cavite [PH] , at 43,52
Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 6
D3A2 Val x 14
B4Y1 Jean x 8
B5M/B5N Kate x 30
Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 8
Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged
B4Y1 Jean: 4 destroyed
B5M/B5N Kate: 5 destroyed, 10 damaged
Allied Ships
AVD Childs, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Permit, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD John D. Ford, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Palawan, Bomb hits 2, on fire
SS Shark, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Sailfish, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Perch, Bomb hits 1
SS Pickerel, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Sealion, Bomb hits 1
SS S-37, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Stingray, Bomb hits 1, on fire
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B4Y1 Jean bombing at 5000 feet
8 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
17 x B5M/B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
11 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila/Cavite [PH] , at 43,52
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 87
Ki-48-I Lily x 24
Ki-21-II Sally x 15
Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 8
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-I Lily: 4 damaged
Ki-21-II Sally: 3 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 11 destroyed
PBY-5 Catalina: 4 destroyed
Allied ground losses:
1128 casualties reported
Guns lost 26
Vehicles lost 11
Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 35
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
9 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Angeles/Clark [PH] , at 43,51
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 96
G3M2 Nell x 47
G4M1 Betty x 54
Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann x 29
Allied aircraft
P-26A x 4
P-35A Hawk x 5
P-40B Tomahawk x 3
P-40E Warhawk x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 1 damaged
G3M2 Nell: 2 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
P-26A: 8 destroyed
P-35A Hawk: 10 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 11 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 12 destroyed
B-17D Fortress: 4 destroyed
Allied ground losses:
2384 casualties reported
Guns lost 54
Vehicles lost 38
Airbase hits 47
Airbase supply hits 11
Runway hits 270
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
8 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
4 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
15 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
6 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
5 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
8 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
13 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
6 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
3 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 5000 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pearl Harbor [Oahu] , at 114,72
21 Torpedoes!!! OUCH!!!
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 66
D3A2 Val x 108
B5M/B5N Kate x 117
Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 4
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 8 destroyed, 3 damaged
D3A2 Val: 11 destroyed, 16 damaged
B5M/B5N Kate: 33 destroyed, 31 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Tomahawk: 27 destroyed
B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed
PBY-5 Catalina: 20 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 6 destroyed
B-18A/B-23/F-2 Bolo: 10 destroyed
P-36A Mohawk: 8 destroyed
SBD-3/4 Dauntless: 5 destroyed
C-32/36/39/40+BT-32: 5 destroyed
A-20B Boston: 6 destroyed
C-47/R4D-5 Skytrain: 2 destroyed
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 3 destroyed
Allied Ships
BB California, Bomb hits 8, on fire
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 3, on fire
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, on fire
DD Ward, Bomb hits 1
DD Monaghan, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Downes, Bomb hits 1
DD Case, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
DD Dewey, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 11, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 14, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
SS Tautog, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Detroit, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AD Dobbin, Bomb hits 1
CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA New Orleans, Torpedo hits 1
CL Helena, Bomb hits 1
DM Ramsay, Bomb hits 1
DD Schley, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
Allied ground losses:
11 casualties reported
Airbase hits 29
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 73
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x A6M2 Zeke attacking at 100 feet
17 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
21 x B5M/B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet
12 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
10 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
18 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
17 x B5M/B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet
26 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
22 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
24 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
14 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
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[/center]- ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: Massacre at Pearl?!?
The results at Pearl were not as bad as I thought. [:)] Considering I got hit with 3 Datai worth of Kate carrying torpedoes.


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[/center]- ny59giants
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- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: Massacre at Pearl?!?
Air Losses were another story. I guess I don't need all those P-40B's. [:D]


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[/center]RE: Massacre at Pearl?!?
ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Air Losses were another story. I guess I don't need all those P-40B's. [:D]
![]()
In this mod look at the P400 you have lots in your pool and they are pretty good. You might want to look at a houserule for the P63A as you start with 16 of these and they are a 9/43 aircraft.
"Square peg, round hole? No problem. Malet please.
RE: Massacre at Pearl?!?
starting a RHS game soon as allied, will look at this one closely, and your opponents too
1966 was a great year for English Football...Eric was born
- ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: Massacre at Pearl?!?
OK, back to my new AAR after some time off for RL stuff (my supervisor was at a conference last week, and I was left in charge). I will try to add different screen shots to every post to help those unfamilar with RHS level 7. I now have all aircraft production on map and as the Allies, I don't have all that free supply/oil/fuel to play with (more on this later). Now, back to the war. [:D]
9 Dec 42
The biggest thing is the amount of Zeros the Japanese have to throw at Luzon from Formosa. Here are two raids: Manila got - 133 Zeros, 52 Nell, 17 Sally and Clark got - 57 Zero, 27 Mary. That's over 200. [X(][X(] Needless to say, the remains of my air force are heading away (fighters to Kendari and eventually Auistralia and my B-17's to India via Soerabaja [;)]). My B-17's tried to put in a visit to Jolo (which he dropped para's on day 1), but did little damage. A lot of bomber have their ranges extended, but not the fighters.
Naval wise a Japanese TF of 1 CA, 2 DD sunk both the British DD's trying to flee Hong Kong. However, my ship (Boise) ran across 2 DD's and sunk both without receiving a hit in return. [:D] I-172 showed up 180 miles SW of San Fran and put in torpedo to a TK (which makes it back to port safely) [X(]. Durch sub KXI is DC at Kota Bharu and is trying to make it back to Singapore.
5th and 48th Division are identified to be in Malaya. No landings in the PI (except Jolo) to date.
Below is how Aden and area have been changed in RHS 7.

9 Dec 42
The biggest thing is the amount of Zeros the Japanese have to throw at Luzon from Formosa. Here are two raids: Manila got - 133 Zeros, 52 Nell, 17 Sally and Clark got - 57 Zero, 27 Mary. That's over 200. [X(][X(] Needless to say, the remains of my air force are heading away (fighters to Kendari and eventually Auistralia and my B-17's to India via Soerabaja [;)]). My B-17's tried to put in a visit to Jolo (which he dropped para's on day 1), but did little damage. A lot of bomber have their ranges extended, but not the fighters.
Naval wise a Japanese TF of 1 CA, 2 DD sunk both the British DD's trying to flee Hong Kong. However, my ship (Boise) ran across 2 DD's and sunk both without receiving a hit in return. [:D] I-172 showed up 180 miles SW of San Fran and put in torpedo to a TK (which makes it back to port safely) [X(]. Durch sub KXI is DC at Kota Bharu and is trying to make it back to Singapore.
5th and 48th Division are identified to be in Malaya. No landings in the PI (except Jolo) to date.
Below is how Aden and area have been changed in RHS 7.

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[/center]- ny59giants
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RE: Massacre at Sea, Part 1
The 10th was not a good day for Allied shipping trying to flee Manila. [:(] Mini-KB is heading South from it position 180 miles east of Manila and does not join in on the massacre. The 3 TF do their dirty work.
4 DD's - hit and/or sink 2 AP, 5 AK, 2 PG
1 CL, 2 DD - hit and/or sink 1 MSW, 1 TK, 1 AK
2 DD - hit and/or sink 3 AK, 1 TK
The air war was quite this turn. [:)]
He lands a small amount of para's at Sorong and capture the base. I lose the AV and Dutch patrol squadron there.
Here is what the Pacific NW looks like with 2 new bases added. I have never played the Japanese side, so I have to take some time to learn about the economics of WitP and find that most of my bases are in the pink here (about 5,000 or less than the required twice amount needed). 4 of the Resources have their repairs shut off. Will follow to see if I am learning. I am told that some HI/Resources will take almost 1200 days to fully repair. Those had been turned on from day 1 and will be left on.

4 DD's - hit and/or sink 2 AP, 5 AK, 2 PG
1 CL, 2 DD - hit and/or sink 1 MSW, 1 TK, 1 AK
2 DD - hit and/or sink 3 AK, 1 TK
The air war was quite this turn. [:)]
He lands a small amount of para's at Sorong and capture the base. I lose the AV and Dutch patrol squadron there.
Here is what the Pacific NW looks like with 2 new bases added. I have never played the Japanese side, so I have to take some time to learn about the economics of WitP and find that most of my bases are in the pink here (about 5,000 or less than the required twice amount needed). 4 of the Resources have their repairs shut off. Will follow to see if I am learning. I am told that some HI/Resources will take almost 1200 days to fully repair. Those had been turned on from day 1 and will be left on.

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[/center]- ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: Massacre at Sea, Part 2
11 Dec 42
If I thought the Massacre at Sea, Part 1 was bad, today was worse. [8|]
I-172 sneaks into San Fran and sinks a PC while an ASW TF drops 5 DC, but misses. (The good news here is in RHS, the Clemson/Wilkes Class DD's get their 1/42 upgrade to have an ASW value of 8). [:D] Can we say Hunter Killer Groups??
I-157 sinks the British DM from Hong Kong with 2 TT trying to get around the NE corner of Borneo.
The 3 TF continue to use my fleeing ships as target practice. [:(]
1 CL, 4 DD - hit and/or sink 3 AK, 1 AS (which turns out to be the Canopus, a ship with the same name I served on in 1979 to 81), 1 MSW, 1 AO
4 DD - hit and/or sink 1 TK
1 CL, 2 DD - hit and/or sink 1 AK, 1 AS
And a poor AK runs into 2BB, 1 CL, 5 DD and 14" shells are wasted. [;)]
Air from Jolo and/or mini-KB hit and/or sink 2 AK, 1 AP, 1 DD The air damage was less than expected as there are thunderstorms covering most of this area. Right now, the weather is my friend. [:D] Air attacks hit Hong Kong, Alor Star, Cagayan (these come from Palua as both Nell and Betty have increased ranges in RHS), Manila.
A deliberate attack on Hong Kong at worse than 1:7 odds fails with heavy casualties.
Below is the new Panama with shipping channels. New Orleans is up the very east edge, if you follow the east most channel south you will follow the map edge to the SW map corner and South Africa.

If I thought the Massacre at Sea, Part 1 was bad, today was worse. [8|]
I-172 sneaks into San Fran and sinks a PC while an ASW TF drops 5 DC, but misses. (The good news here is in RHS, the Clemson/Wilkes Class DD's get their 1/42 upgrade to have an ASW value of 8). [:D] Can we say Hunter Killer Groups??

I-157 sinks the British DM from Hong Kong with 2 TT trying to get around the NE corner of Borneo.
The 3 TF continue to use my fleeing ships as target practice. [:(]
1 CL, 4 DD - hit and/or sink 3 AK, 1 AS (which turns out to be the Canopus, a ship with the same name I served on in 1979 to 81), 1 MSW, 1 AO
4 DD - hit and/or sink 1 TK
1 CL, 2 DD - hit and/or sink 1 AK, 1 AS
And a poor AK runs into 2BB, 1 CL, 5 DD and 14" shells are wasted. [;)]
Air from Jolo and/or mini-KB hit and/or sink 2 AK, 1 AP, 1 DD The air damage was less than expected as there are thunderstorms covering most of this area. Right now, the weather is my friend. [:D] Air attacks hit Hong Kong, Alor Star, Cagayan (these come from Palua as both Nell and Betty have increased ranges in RHS), Manila.
A deliberate attack on Hong Kong at worse than 1:7 odds fails with heavy casualties.
Below is the new Panama with shipping channels. New Orleans is up the very east edge, if you follow the east most channel south you will follow the map edge to the SW map corner and South Africa.

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[/center]- ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
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RE: Massacre at Sea, Part 3
12 Dec 42 Massacre at Sea, Part 3
It was less than before and John wrote that he underestimated the speed of some of my ships. I have them all at full speed and running for hopefully safer waters. With the Allies running an economy, I don't have the luxury of having too many AK/AP/TK like the Allies do in stock and other mods (early war wise).
Naval:
4CA, 3 DD sink 1 PC, 1 MSW, 1PT at Palembang.
A BB TF of 2BB, 1CL, 5DD hit Palembang (minimal damage).
To the east of Balikpapan 1CA, 1CL, 3DD hit and/or sink 5 AK.
Dutch sub KXIV sinks an AK with 2 TT off of Brunei.
My ASW TF at San Fran continues to miss I-172. [&:]
John claims that Prince of Wales used up one of its nine lives as I-162 misses off of Toboali. [:D]
Air:
20 Zeros, 56 Lily, 28 Sally wipe out the 6 Buffalo flying CAP over Kuala Lumpur
His Jake floatplanes continue to hunt and hit my 3 AK's fleeing directly east of Luzon. In my other brief game with John, I tried running them south to the east coast of New Guinea and they got wiped out. I told him I should have gone east and tried to run away. I didn't know we would be re-starting a game so soon and now he is waiting for me. [:(]
The daily run of 8 Betty and 3 Nell hit Cagayan (the B-17's have moved to Soerabaja). The numbers are down, so I feel he has some on Naval Attack. The range for these two Torpedo carrying LB's are: Nell - 14/19 & Betty - 19/26. YIKES!!
My Dutch air force continues to fly and miss whatever they aim at. Hopefully, their experience level is going up and eventually they will hit something.
Meanwhile, Vildebeest from Malaya put 1 torpedo in CA Kumano 180 miles SE of Singapore returning from its attack at Palembang. [:D]
Ground:
18th Division captures Alor Star.
I try to kick out the division and tank regiment at Wuchang/Wahan, but fail with heavy losses.
Below is a picture of my ships trying to flee the SRA. Over to the east edge is 2 TF looking to conduct landings. I have sent Boise from Ambonia to intervene and a Dutch TF of 1CL, 2DD to the nothern base. I lost only 1 sub at Manila, so I have the non-S boats in 2 sub TF out on various minelaying missions. In RHS, both Manila and Soerabja have port size of 9. [:D] I fear the Nell/Betty menace at Palua making me pay for actions.

It was less than before and John wrote that he underestimated the speed of some of my ships. I have them all at full speed and running for hopefully safer waters. With the Allies running an economy, I don't have the luxury of having too many AK/AP/TK like the Allies do in stock and other mods (early war wise).
Naval:
4CA, 3 DD sink 1 PC, 1 MSW, 1PT at Palembang.
A BB TF of 2BB, 1CL, 5DD hit Palembang (minimal damage).
To the east of Balikpapan 1CA, 1CL, 3DD hit and/or sink 5 AK.
Dutch sub KXIV sinks an AK with 2 TT off of Brunei.
My ASW TF at San Fran continues to miss I-172. [&:]
John claims that Prince of Wales used up one of its nine lives as I-162 misses off of Toboali. [:D]
Air:
20 Zeros, 56 Lily, 28 Sally wipe out the 6 Buffalo flying CAP over Kuala Lumpur
His Jake floatplanes continue to hunt and hit my 3 AK's fleeing directly east of Luzon. In my other brief game with John, I tried running them south to the east coast of New Guinea and they got wiped out. I told him I should have gone east and tried to run away. I didn't know we would be re-starting a game so soon and now he is waiting for me. [:(]
The daily run of 8 Betty and 3 Nell hit Cagayan (the B-17's have moved to Soerabaja). The numbers are down, so I feel he has some on Naval Attack. The range for these two Torpedo carrying LB's are: Nell - 14/19 & Betty - 19/26. YIKES!!
My Dutch air force continues to fly and miss whatever they aim at. Hopefully, their experience level is going up and eventually they will hit something.
Meanwhile, Vildebeest from Malaya put 1 torpedo in CA Kumano 180 miles SE of Singapore returning from its attack at Palembang. [:D]
Ground:
18th Division captures Alor Star.
I try to kick out the division and tank regiment at Wuchang/Wahan, but fail with heavy losses.
Below is a picture of my ships trying to flee the SRA. Over to the east edge is 2 TF looking to conduct landings. I have sent Boise from Ambonia to intervene and a Dutch TF of 1CL, 2DD to the nothern base. I lost only 1 sub at Manila, so I have the non-S boats in 2 sub TF out on various minelaying missions. In RHS, both Manila and Soerabja have port size of 9. [:D] I fear the Nell/Betty menace at Palua making me pay for actions.

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[/center]RE: At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
Great an RHS AAR! As I'd like to start an RHS campaign soon as well I'll follow this closely. [8D][:)]
You already mentioned the resource/supply situation of the allies, eg that there are no excessive loads of it around and aircraft production is mostly on map. Please share your thoughts and actions to cope with that as this is a completely new aspect to the game for the allies and I bet many people are interested in how it works out.
Good luck with your game and have fun!
You already mentioned the resource/supply situation of the allies, eg that there are no excessive loads of it around and aircraft production is mostly on map. Please share your thoughts and actions to cope with that as this is a completely new aspect to the game for the allies and I bet many people are interested in how it works out.
Good luck with your game and have fun!
If you gained knowledge through the forum, why not putting it into the AE wiki?
http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/War_in_th ... ition_Wiki
http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/War_in_th ... ition_Wiki
- ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
I have only one week of game experience so far, but I will share what I have learned about Allied production. Per Sid, turn off repairs of all aircraft production of those with "-rd" after them until they become available to produce. Then turn them on to repair as they will ramp up to full production. If Andy Mac reads this, he will like the fact that the Allies get 160 F6F Wildcats per month. [:D] It will take 5 months for production to ramp up to this amount.
I wrote this next part down after searching the Design section to find info on Allied economy. I did some math and figured out some of the specifics. For new RHS Allied players, you may want to copy and paste this info somewhere.
West Coast
To New Orleans you will need to send 150,000 Resources per month. You will get about 115,000 in supply back. You have 100 Manpower there so 30,000 goes there and the rest to HI. You will get some Oil back. The main AK for the Allies has 10,000 capacity, so 15 of them will need to be devoted to this monthly. Eventually more as repairs take place.
Supply will have to be sent everywhere from the WC. You will not be able to just load up like in stock and other mods. Maybe later, but from what I have read, not until late '42 at the earliest. [X(]
Fuel to Alaska, CP, SP, Australia, and Nz
Oil to Nz and Australia. The numbers come out to 64,000 to Australia and 16,000 to Nz per month. This doesn't have to all come from the WC as Muscat on the top of the map produces huge amounts that India will not need it all.
New Orleans:
Oil & Supply to the WC.
Australia:
Ship Resources from Perth to Melbourne as they produce more than they need and it will not move overland.
Resource from New Caledonia to both Nz & Oz. Both Koumac and Noumea produce a fair amount of Resources that you can drop off near by and not transport to the WC.
Resources to Nz
Middle East:
Oil to India and Australia (mainly from Muscat)
Supplies to India and Australia (mainly from Aden)
Recife:
This base in the shipping channels gets 1000 free supply per day to ship out.
I have looked closely at the WC & New Orleans economies and have shut down repairs on all Repair shipyards except San Fran and San Diego. They are the only bases to have excessive supply so far. Some of the other bases are just making due or less than 5000 below the magic twice the required amount.
I have everything north and west of and including Prince Rupert shut off for repairs (this is all Resources). Cannot afford to do everything. [:D]
All HI/Resources/Oil that have over 1000 damage are turned on and left on. They will take most of the game to get finished. All Manpower is turned off. Manpower eats up 10x Resources daily, so I don't need more of that right now. [;)] All HI and Oil is turned on for repairs.
My adjustments are with Resource repairs. I have the following turned off (I have enough right now). The number is how much needs repairing: Astoria (360); Aberdeen (360); Tacoma (395); Seattle (85); Victoria (145); Vancouver (187); Prince Rupert (75); Fairbanks (90); Anchorage (80); & Seward (90). I will probably turn on the three highest value ones around 3/42 or 4/42 time frame as most of my minor repairs (some oil and others have less than 100 to repair) will be done by then. The Pacific NW may take some more fine tuning and I will post as I go.
I plan to look more in depth at other areas as the turns continue. In India, there is very little to repair. So I will just need to keep it well feed.
Hoped this helps.
I wrote this next part down after searching the Design section to find info on Allied economy. I did some math and figured out some of the specifics. For new RHS Allied players, you may want to copy and paste this info somewhere.
West Coast
To New Orleans you will need to send 150,000 Resources per month. You will get about 115,000 in supply back. You have 100 Manpower there so 30,000 goes there and the rest to HI. You will get some Oil back. The main AK for the Allies has 10,000 capacity, so 15 of them will need to be devoted to this monthly. Eventually more as repairs take place.
Supply will have to be sent everywhere from the WC. You will not be able to just load up like in stock and other mods. Maybe later, but from what I have read, not until late '42 at the earliest. [X(]
Fuel to Alaska, CP, SP, Australia, and Nz
Oil to Nz and Australia. The numbers come out to 64,000 to Australia and 16,000 to Nz per month. This doesn't have to all come from the WC as Muscat on the top of the map produces huge amounts that India will not need it all.
New Orleans:
Oil & Supply to the WC.
Australia:
Ship Resources from Perth to Melbourne as they produce more than they need and it will not move overland.
Resource from New Caledonia to both Nz & Oz. Both Koumac and Noumea produce a fair amount of Resources that you can drop off near by and not transport to the WC.
Resources to Nz
Middle East:
Oil to India and Australia (mainly from Muscat)
Supplies to India and Australia (mainly from Aden)
Recife:
This base in the shipping channels gets 1000 free supply per day to ship out.
I have looked closely at the WC & New Orleans economies and have shut down repairs on all Repair shipyards except San Fran and San Diego. They are the only bases to have excessive supply so far. Some of the other bases are just making due or less than 5000 below the magic twice the required amount.
I have everything north and west of and including Prince Rupert shut off for repairs (this is all Resources). Cannot afford to do everything. [:D]
All HI/Resources/Oil that have over 1000 damage are turned on and left on. They will take most of the game to get finished. All Manpower is turned off. Manpower eats up 10x Resources daily, so I don't need more of that right now. [;)] All HI and Oil is turned on for repairs.
My adjustments are with Resource repairs. I have the following turned off (I have enough right now). The number is how much needs repairing: Astoria (360); Aberdeen (360); Tacoma (395); Seattle (85); Victoria (145); Vancouver (187); Prince Rupert (75); Fairbanks (90); Anchorage (80); & Seward (90). I will probably turn on the three highest value ones around 3/42 or 4/42 time frame as most of my minor repairs (some oil and others have less than 100 to repair) will be done by then. The Pacific NW may take some more fine tuning and I will post as I go.
I plan to look more in depth at other areas as the turns continue. In India, there is very little to repair. So I will just need to keep it well feed.
Hoped this helps.
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[/center]- Gen.Hoepner
- Posts: 3636
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: italy
RE: At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
I gotta jump on this RHS....seems really amazing[&o]
RE: At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
Im about to start a RHS game GH, if you're interested ill give you a game as Allied. What say you?
Ill be keeping an eye on this one giants
Ill be keeping an eye on this one giants
1966 was a great year for English Football...Eric was born
RE: At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
First one. You need to move Resources from CONUSA to New Orleans ASAP
Second. You need to move Resources from Australia (Melbourne) to NOLA ASAP
Third. You need to move oil from either NOLA or CONUSA to Australia.
In the return trip load supplies to CONUSA and Australia.
Aden / India produces excess of supplies and resources. Use all the merchies here to move supplies towards Australia.
Second. You need to move Resources from Australia (Melbourne) to NOLA ASAP
Third. You need to move oil from either NOLA or CONUSA to Australia.
In the return trip load supplies to CONUSA and Australia.
Aden / India produces excess of supplies and resources. Use all the merchies here to move supplies towards Australia.

RE: At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
Its basically an attempt to introduce some element of Allied economy into the game.
1966 was a great year for English Football...Eric was born
RE: At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
What is NOLA?
RE: At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
Much thanks
- ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: At Dawn We Slept - Allied version of RHSRAO
First one. You need to move Resources from CONUSA to New Orleans ASAP
REPLY: I already have 2 10k AK working there way down the shipping channel with Resources. Another 2 are loading at San Diego. I have 5 more about to make port (San Diego) in a day or two. I am moving the stored Resource at Panama there also. It looks like I be shutdown in 2 days as I run out of Resources. [:(] I think I will need about 30 AK's (capacity 10k each) involved with moving things in and out.
Second. You need to move Resources from Australia (Melbourne) to NOLA ASAP
REPLY: I just figured out the Oil requirements for Australia and Nz. I will look at how much Resources I can take back to WC (West Coast) on a monthly basis. I have the AK's from Luzon heading towards Perth and the survivors we stop off and pick up Resources. I already know that empty shipping is not helpful in RHS. [:D]
Third. You need to move oil from either NOLA or CONUSA to Australia.
REPLY: I already have Oil coming out from NO on those big 10k TK. Will load up some of those on the WC as I balance out the need to move fuel to forward bases.
In the return trip load supplies to CONUSA and Australia.
REPLY: I have the (New Orleans) NO economy figured out, but will need time to get it running smoothly.
Aden / India produces excess of supplies and resources. Use all the merchies here to move supplies towards Australia.
REPLY: I almost always send the AK's to Aden and then send the USA AK's with supplies to Australia before they go to the USA. I usually rotate TF (one to Australia, then to India with British AK's).
I figure things will take to about 3/42 to get ironed out. I look forward to the mega-reinforcement in mid 1/42 with all those AK/TK's arriving. That will be a long turn as I get my convoys organized. [;)]
I already have the effects of RHS bleeding over to my CHS PBEM game. I have about 40k worth of Oil on the way to Australia. Looked at the economy in Australia and saw that production was halted. [X(] Already have 50k worth of TK's loading Oil this turn (the main interior USA base is max on oil). [X(]
Note to other PBEM players (not playing RHS): Once you have enough fuel in Australia, send huge amounts of Oil from USA there vs. sending more fuel. If you send oil, you will still get the fuel when used by HI, but you get supply as a side benefit. Double the bang for the buck (dollar for you non-Americans). I have been playing WitP for how long now and I "just" figured this out due to RHS. DUH!!!


Below is a shot of New Orleans. Economy for NO:
Manpower (300) x 100 Repair Off The 100 eats 10x resources (1000) per turn. [X(]
HI (1192) x 4808 Repair On
Oil (1192) x 608 Repair On
Resources 0 (you get 1200 free per day, but Manpower will eat 1000)
Repair Shipyard (132) x 300 Repair off (I have the ships from Pearl with moderate damage, but speed over 10 on their way here)
Aircraft Production Repair On (one plane needs another 7 days to complete and then will switch the shipyard repair on).
Both the "Queens" start out here...Liz and Mary. They cannot fit through the Canal and I have yet to figure out how I am going to use them. Speed of 32 with capacity of 16k. Any suggestions??

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