Contemplations on RHS:EOS / Empires Ablaze plane additions

[Nemo121]

I've been having a bit of a think recently of new planes to add into Empires Ablaze given that I'm updating the mod as I am playing jagdfluger. Since Empires Ablaze uses an old version of RHS:EOS as a base I figured some of my thoughts would have applicability to RHS:EOS also.

1. Folding Lancer/P-43s available to the Chinese into the same plane slot as the P-43s available to the US. Then do the same with the Martlett IIs, IIIs, IVs and F4F3s and F4F4s. That frees up another two slots. Same thing with the Mohawk/P36 and P36.

2. Japan needs options as opposed to "better" planes. This is the primary reason for my inclusion of the Me-264 strategic bomber and torpedo bomber variants. These two variants give Japan an ability to project two massively important forms of power at such ranges as to strategically transform Japan's options.

3. Night-fighters.... Why not just plump for the He-219? It can be available relatively early and it is the best night-fighter possible. Hell, since it was relatively underpowered it also uses up those Mitsubishi and Nakajima engines in mid-43 and 44 when almost no other production variants use these engine types anymore.

4. I would strongly suggest setting terminal auto-upgrades to the Ki-115 ( sans engine ) such that Japan gets the ability to produce a huge number of these special-purpose kamikazes in 1945. They aren't over-powered at all BUT they do give massed kamikaze attacks a viable option in 1945. I've tested an 800 plane launch vs 400 US CV fighters and managed a few hits ( although most of the planes which made it through the CAP got blown out of the sky ).

5. More Japanese twin-engined fighter-bombers with heavy armour and frontal armament with a view to being used as FlAK suppressors ( this MASSIVELY increases the survivability of IJA and IJN torpedo bombers in 1943 to 1945 ) or bomber-interceptors.

6. Add in a few "goodies" for the Allies in the 4 or so slots which can be freed up by amalgamating plane slots which represent the same plane but in different services. In the worst case scenarios a simple house rule can prevent Corsairs being used on British CVs until the time they were actually delivered to the Brits ( and the same goes for the other aircraft types).


Personally I don't think the Ju-88 and ju-87 are that necessary. I think the Ki-51 is a great little airplane actually and serves in the Pacific as well as any Ju-87 would. I also think the level-bombing Ki-48 II gives Japan a crucial armoured level-bombing capability in mid-42 which it otherwise doesn't have until the Ki-49 is in full production. It should be borne in mind that I'm definitely in the "hey why can't Japan have funky German designs?" camp and am the reason the Uhu is in my mod and the Me-109 and Me-264 are in RHS EOS BUT I don't think the Ju-88 and Ju-87 are really that much better than Japanese alternatives given the different operational requirements of the Pacific. OTOH I think I'd actually kill to get FW-190As in 1942 [8D] but I don't think it is really feasible in early 1942 ( and the Ki-109 does a good job in this role anyways ) and by January 1943 the Ki-44 III totally fills the bomber-killer/anti-fighter role brilliantly.


What I'm interested in is IF I were to amalgamate Martlett and F4F3/4 slots, US and UK Corsair slots, the P43s and P36s which 4 or 5 Allied planes ( can include hypotheticals ) would the Allied players like to see appearing in 1944 and 1945? We already have the F7 and F8 and P-80.

[okami]

The British Meteor which flew in 1939. Think about exploring if the allies developed there jet fighter versions a little early.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I've been having a bit of a think recently of new planes to add into Empires Ablaze given that I'm updating the mod as I am playing jagdfluger. Since Empires Ablaze uses an old version of RHS:EOS as a base I figured some of my thoughts would have applicability to RHS:EOS also.

1. Folding Lancer/P-43s available to the Chinese into the same plane slot as the P-43s available to the US. Then do the same with the Martlett IIs, IIIs, IVs and F4F3s and F4F4s. That frees up another two slots. Same thing with the Mohawk/P36 and P36.

REPLY: There are problems with this: it is a trade off situation (as always in modding - or game design). It means you cannot show that the British did NOT use the same plane the same way - with different weapons, ranges, etc. Also essentially you open up China and the Commonwealth Allies to have far too many upgrade options far too soon. It wholly changes the character of the "shoestring war" in China and the Far East - from the non-American and non-Soviet point of view. Now that might be acceptable in EOS - it might not? Players retain control - they do not have to upgrade I-16s to P-43s or whatever after all - they can say "not a political option" if they want. And there was a plan to come up with a common art scheme - for that is the other problem: the planes do not have the right markings if you put them in the "wrong" air force (which indeed happens in some cases). This scheme was only implemented for air transports - so far - and we indeed did gain slots by doing it. Air transports have NO national markings and can serve in ANY air force without looking "wrong." Cobra has no date for doing the rest of that plan. But meanwhile I have concluded we don't want to to it in all cases - like the ones recommended here. In many cases we use the different slots to give you different models: a P-40 in AVG service is not actually the same model as in USAAF service - it has different weapons, armor, etc.

2. Japan needs options as opposed to "better" planes. This is the primary reason for my inclusion of the Me-264 strategic bomber and torpedo bomber variants. These two variants give Japan an ability to project two massively important forms of power at such ranges as to strategically transform Japan's options.

REPLY: My impression is this didn't work out - and different versions of G5 were substituted - because of the logistic cost of the 264 (which is real - and why Germany never planned to build more than a few).

3. Night-fighters.... Why not just plump for the He-219? It can be available relatively early and it is the best night-fighter possible. Hell, since it was relatively underpowered it also uses up those Mitsubishi and Nakajima engines in mid-43 and 44 when almost no other production variants use these engine types anymore.

REPLY: Just reviewed this - and went with the Ju-88. It is actually available with radar first of all - and it is not bad. But neither this aircraft nor the He can serve on a carrier - so the later Japanese plane is actually better in that sense. We also have two loadouts for the Ju- some units get the Schrage Musik (oblique firing 20 mm guns). Does not need a slot the way RHS does it.

4. I would strongly suggest setting terminal auto-upgrades to the Ki-115 ( sans engine ) such that Japan gets the ability to produce a huge number of these special-purpose kamikazes in 1945. They aren't over-powered at all BUT they do give massed kamikaze attacks a viable option in 1945. I've tested an 800 plane launch vs 400 US CV fighters and managed a few hits ( although most of the planes which made it through the CAP got blown out of the sky ).

REPLY: WITP is not up to massive numbers of planes in an attack - the routine breaks down. That might change down the road - but it has not yet changed. So RHS - which has tamed the "uber cap problem" substantially - seeks solutions NOT geared to huge strikes - which cannot work in a technical sense. Add to that the concept that kamakazes are not an efficient way to wage warfare: they cost too many airframes and pilots for the return. Add to that that the Ki-115 is not a very good kamakaze. It is not in any form of RHS - and because everything (even transports and recon planes CAN be a kamakaze - and will automatically if you let AI have its way - I consider the kamakaze is there for those who want it. I don't want it. Nor would Japan have used it had Adm Yamamoto lived. It is a peculiar anomoly of history that the intense emotional nationalism of the era was combined with ignorance in a technical sense to produce this not very effective solution to the problem of air attack on ships. It was also attempted in Germany - vs land targets - with even less effect.
There ARE effective naval strike options - and RHS is focused on giving players tools to find them. Kamakaze's are only part of the package insofar as code permits that as an option for all aircraft. RHS went another way - giving you "pilotless kamakazes" - missiles - in some numbers. Also rockets.

5. More Japanese twin-engined fighter-bombers with heavy armour and frontal armament with a view to being used as FlAK suppressors ( this MASSIVELY increases the survivability of IJA and IJN torpedo bombers in 1943 to 1945 ) or bomber-interceptors.

REPLY: There is no such aircraft. The closest there is - Ki-45 II - was added - at your request. We now have added a Ju-88 - which is a dive bomber and is armored - and it has a gigantic bombload - to the point Dili fears nothing will survive at sea in range!

6. Add in a few "goodies" for the Allies in the 4 or so slots which can be freed up by amalgamating plane slots which represent the same plane but in different services. In the worst case scenarios a simple house rule can prevent Corsairs being used on British CVs until the time they were actually delivered to the Brits ( and the same goes for the other aircraft types).


Personally I don't think the Ju-88 and ju-87 are that necessary. I think the Ki-51 is a great little airplane actually and serves in the Pacific as well as any Ju-87 would. I also think the level-bombing Ki-48 II gives Japan a crucial armoured level-bombing capability in mid-42 which it otherwise doesn't have until the Ki-49 is in full production. It should be borne in mind that I'm definitely in the "hey why can't Japan have funky German designs?" camp and am the reason the Uhu is in my mod and the Me-109 and Me-264 are in RHS EOS BUT I don't think the Ju-88 and Ju-87 are really that much better than Japanese alternatives given the different operational requirements of the Pacific. OTOH I think I'd actually kill to get FW-190As in 1942 [8D] but I don't think it is really feasible in early 1942 ( and the Ki-109 does a good job in this role anyways ) and by January 1943 the Ki-44 III totally fills the bomber-killer/anti-fighter role brilliantly.

REPLY: Exhaustive review confirms your view of Ju-87. Its range is too short to be of interest. The Ju-88 is sort of a Ki-48 II with more bombs, slightly more defensive armament, more range, but less maneuverability and less speed. It will be effective early - but not late - I suspect - being too vulnerable - as IRL. Still - bombs on target is a big part of the deal in air power. I too think the Ki-51 is a better airplane than most people do. And it is a curious case of a proposal by a NAVY captain being adopted - exclusively - by the ARMY (those who believe there was no meaningful cooperation take note). If you must go in vs flak, armor may be smarter than the unarmored Val. And even Val is not to be laughed at: it sank more ships than any other aircraft in history.


What I'm interested in is IF I were to amalgamate Martlett and F4F3/4 slots, US and UK Corsair slots, the P43s and P36s which 4 or 5 Allied planes ( can include hypotheticals ) would the Allied players like to see appearing in 1944 and 1945? We already have the F7 and F8 and P-80.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: okami

The British Meteor which flew in 1939. Think about exploring if the allies developed there jet fighter versions a little early.

The first flight of the Gloster Meteor was 5 March 1943 - not sure where the impression came from it was 1939. There were no engines for such a thing.

The first squadron delivery was 12 July 1944.

To which add that it is not a particularly great warplane by late war standards. The great weakness of all early jets is range - something that matters a great deal in PTO.

FYI there is a jet in WITP - although I am not impressed with it: the particular jet was successful insofar as it remained in production until 1960 - as a trainer (with a different name). But it also is not particularly impressive as a front line combat aircraft in 1945. This is the P-80 - if the Allies want jets - they have them already.

[Mac Linehan]

Hi, Nemo -

Where do I download your scenarios? Keep up the good work!

Mac