Reopening the "moral highground" debate

[The Almighty Turtle]

Ok than, if anybody is really interested in where I am, it is California, OK?

Now that that is out of the way....

This thread is NOT to discuss how evil the regimes were. I would hope that everybody would UNDERSTAND that by now. I explicitly said so earlier. I do not think that we have a problem of people whitewashing Stalin, Hitler, the Chrysanthemum Cabal, etc. And, you know what is said, "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

So, for once and for all: were it merely about how evil the thugs in the nice coats sitting in the Fuhrerbunker/Dacha/whatever were, I would not have bothered to make this thread.

Another thing many people think this is is some sort of preaching against playing as the Germans/Soviets/Japanese/etc. This is far from true. I do, like KG Erwin, buy SS units for my German Core Forces, again for their improved gear and stats. It would be hypocritical of me to preach against such things, especially in a Video Game/Wargame. This is a Simulation game based on WWII, not a exact rendition of events in it, complete with war crimes (and sorry to Paradox forums for ripping that off of you.)

What I HAVE noticed is how many people seem to treat the regular German, Soviet, and (to a lesser extent) Japanese armies with kid gloves. They were all doing their jobs, its not like they were any worse than the Western Allies, etc.

However, what people do NOT seem to get is that not all the crimes committed by the regimes they served were done by Secret Policemen or Fanatical private military soldiers. Much of the blood shed was firmly on the cloths of the linemen of those regime's armies. Some of this is well known, ie the Rape of Nanking, the rampages of the Soviets in Eastern Europe, etc.

However, the fact remains that many fail to grasp or outright ignore the constant and widespread involvement of even the regular military in crimes of war. Many people seem to think that the A good primer on the darker side of the Wehrmacht in particular is The History Net.com's article, Soviet Prisoners of War: Forgotten Nazi Victims of World War II, which details the cold, calculating extermination of three and a half million Soviet prisoners.

The fact remains, while we all, to one extent or another, know of the crimes committed by groups like the NKVD, the SS, the SA, GRU, and others, we do not accept that the regular armies of those nations were all-too eager to commit crimes alongside those.

So, no, you do not have to stop playing as the SS, or stop playing Russian Steel. That was never my intent, or my agenda (to use KG Erwin's term).

My agenda was to show that, while SPWAW does not posses many Good VS Evil moments or morality lessons, the RL things that happened DID. In Spades. Just because "your" soldiers/computer sprites did nothing does not mean that their real-life equivalent were saints.

No, not every Japanese soldier ate Allied POWs alive (I can understand why some would eat already-dead ones though). However, many,many did.

So, on these forums, at least try to be mature enough, and not devolve into wishy-washy moral equivalence about History, as the German Wehrmacht, IJA, and Red Army were, in large part, far from saintly.

That is my "agenda." Ok?

And Spin? I would appreciate you point out where I have used spin.

[Punzer]

Nobody willing to kill another is a saint. After that it's just a matter of degree to me. I just don't see the problem, but I respect your view Turtle.
 
[:)]

[Oldguard1970]

Gee... and all along I thought I was playing a wargame.

Happy Thanksgiving to all, and God bless the soldiers who protect our homes and our freedom.

[sabrejack]

ORIGINAL: The Almighty Turtle

tm.asp?m=1370383&mpage=1&key=?

I think this is what you were talking about, so, take a look at this piece of "work."

Wow, I posted in that (locked) thread... I'm part of (evil?) history!

[:D]

[tracer]

Turtle/Porpoise:
From your tone throughout this thread you seem to think that the individual responsible for all the evils in the world in a MGF-member, and 'you want answers';
I hate to break it to you, but I've never seen anyone fitting that description around here ...life ain't that easy.

Perhaps the answer you're looking for can be found in the well-known phrase "war brings out the best, and worst, in mankind". To delve into it beyond that simply tears open old wounds, and inflicts new ones.

IMO when Sherman said "War is hell" he summed it up perfectly.