SS

[17poundr]

What??? Thacher bestowed 'numerous benefits on Britain'??? Should I take this as somekind of sarcasm? Yes, it must be sarcasm... As I remember it, M.Tacher managed to get Britain some new nuclear missiles that it needed like a second nose on a boxer... Oh, and there was the poll tax! What a winner! And she managed to change my Granfathers voting from a lifetime of voting Tory, to voting Lib-Dem...

I mean, she started the downgrading of British public health (wich is all the more sad as Britain was the first country in the world to get in a public health bill)...

And after her time as PM, she distinguished her self as the calendar girl of the tobakko industry... Oh, and good chum of Augusto Pinochet, the famous dictator who's regime torured, raped, kidnapped and killed countless Chilean's after taking the reigns of power in a shameful military overthrow of the legitimate goverment, and there is proof on recorded radio traffic from the day of the attack on the house of the Chilean parliament, where the legit leader Alliende and ohters, were defending their lives rifles and helmets donned and all... Against troops loyal to Pinochet, who had not only total manpower superiority, but also bombed the very place of Democracy... In the taped conversation, Pinochet says, "If he (Alliende), sues for peace and fly's out of Chile, we'll shoot the Bastard down before he get's out of Chile", or something very close to those words... So, he was also a direct murderer... Yepp, just one of Marvelous Maggies chums...

As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'! How many can you incinerate a day??? With ofcourse the words 'arbeit macht frei', on the game cover with emaciated inmates in their striped shirts in the baground...

There is a limit to what is actually wize Gentlemen... I do not feel that folks in many parts of the world would understand somebody playing a game where SS Totenkopf deaths head units are romping through Europe... Why? Because unlike mosts Waffen SS units, who were simply elite soldiers, with some shootings of pow's, but this happened on all sides sometimes, ok?

But, Totenkopf was made up of the camp guard side of the SS, to proove that they too could fight, and fight they did, but were also most consistent in war crimes in Russia... Well, that's my humble oppinion... Do what you want, luckily for the Anglo - Americans, we have a system of goverment that let's us have a long degree of free speach... But there are places where one must use one's own judgement... Perhaps this is one of them???

Yours truly,

Mr Poundr.

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

..I take a more sympathetic view of it than that. After all, you wouldn't encourage a reformed alcoholic to keep a full liquor cabinet.

[:D][:D][:D]Colin, someone just doesn´t trust the Germans much do they! [:D][:D][:D]

Actually, they're probably my favorite brand of European (read that how you will). However, I can see why they don't want to permit people to parade around with Nazi flags. For them, certainly, it's a path that really has been trodden. They really probably feel the need for 'Do not enter. Wrong Way' signs.

Gets back to the ex-alcoholic. If he feels he shouldn't have beer in the house, I won't argue with him. Now, should he decide I can't have beer in my house...

[Silvanski]

It would get quite absurd to have an OOB with a unit called
12th "not to be mentioned cuz it's politically incorrect but you know what kind of unit we're talking about" Division

[Veers]

ORIGINAL: Silvanski



It would get quite absurd to have an OOB with a unit called
12th "not to be mentioned cuz it's politically incorrect but you know what kind of unit we're talking about" Division

How true. [:D]

[Ike99]

ColinWright- I think with a bit of thought you'll realize the inaccuracy of this analogy. Whatever one might say about the military effectiveness or purpose of B-52 strikes on North Vietnam, it'd be a real stretch to argue that we carried them out because we thought that killing Vietnamese peasants was per se a good thing. Rightly or wrongly, morally or immorally, we thought of the raids as a means to the end of compelling North Vietnam to cease its attacks upon South Vietnam. The Germans did not kill Jews to get the US to make peace, Russia to make peace, or as a means to any other goal distinct from the murder itself. Killing Jews was an end in itself. This is where the comparison with the Holocaust really breaks down.

Colin one can always find an excuse to do what they want no matter how criminal. I guarantee you if asked Hitler wouldn´t have said he was killing Jews just because he felt like it. That it was an ¨end in itself.¨ I not sure about the reasoning, I haven´t looked into the history of it actually but he would have had something. Regardless of his reason it was obviously a criminal act.

Now you recognize that as a criminal but you can´t recognize the bombing of Vietnamese civilians in Vietnam as criminal, why not? Because your an American? What does 3 million+ peasants killed by bombings in N.Vietnam have to do with military objectives?

The US carpet bombed N.Vietnam Colin with more bombs than in all of WW2! Question ...uhhh...yeah, I think so. [:D]

Like I said before, anyone can come up with an excuse for doing criminal activity but the bombings of N.Vietnam were definately a criminal act any way you slice it. You can´t see that because your own flag is obstructing your vision. [;)]

Imagine 3 million+ Americans dead in bombings and some Arab telling you we thought it was legit way to get the USA to stop destroying Iraq.[8|] Doesn´t hold much water does it but that´s exactly what your saying with Vietnam!

One could easily compile similar lists for other countries. The massacre of Algerian protestors in France in the late fifties. The program of chemical sterilization (or whatever) for genetic defectives in Sweden in the sixties.

A few political actions you disagree with do not a fascist state make. In any case, there's nothing fascist at all about at least two-thirds of the items on your list.

Well yeah your right, your country, my country, everyones country if it has a longer history than a week has done something very bad in its history. And that´s my point exactly, you ban one symbol from a wargame you need to ban them all because no one has a country with clean hands.

Genocide? Let´s ban the crossed swords of the US Cavalry and custer for riding into indian villages and killing man woman and child. Not to pick on the US because all countries have these histories. My own country was throwing people out of airplanes 30 years ago over the Atlantic. Yeah they had a reason too, it was criminal of course and there is no excuse but yeah...they had a reason.[8|]

Silvanski-What we do when we wargame is re-create events from the past with OOB's as accurate as they can get.
IMHO the use of SS rhunes is part of that, just like NKVD units.

We all have common sense to aknowledge the wrong which was done by such and such.

My mom, who lived through the occupation from 1940-1944 is not shocked by seeing swastikas depicted in movies, wargames and model airplanes. In her words "That was part of the stuff what was going on"

I agree completely. Historical context, not glorifying the criminal acts or symbols, not pushing any ideology. Perfectly acceptable in a wargame context...to me. I don´t see swasticas in wargames as opening Pandoras box in Germany. They already see them in movies and museums and such I´m sure Colin. They already see them in wargames I´m sure too Colin it´s just not advertised.

It just dumbs down the history to me Colin.

So you think the Swastica & SS symbol should be banned in wargames Colin? Maybe I´m misunderstanding you.

[sstevens06]

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

...

As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'! How many can you incinerate a day??? With ofcourse the words 'arbeit macht frei', on the game cover with emaciated inmates in their striped shirts in the baground...

There is a limit to what is actually wize Gentlemen... I do not feel that folks in many parts of the world would understand somebody playing a game where SS Totenkopf deaths head units are romping through Europe... Why? Because unlike mosts Waffen SS units, who were simply elite soldiers, with some shootings of pow's, but this happened on all sides sometimes, ok?

But, Totenkopf was made up of the camp guard side of the SS, to proove that they too could fight, and fight they did, but were also most consistent in war crimes in Russia... Well, that's my humble oppinion... Do what you want, luckily for the Anglo - Americans, we have a system of goverment that let's us have a long degree of free speach... But there are places where one must use one's own judgement... Perhaps this is one of them???

Yours truly,

Mr Poundr.

Aren't you getting a little carried away here? We are talking about TOAW, an operational-level military simulation, not some sick, perverted product of your overwrought imagination. "Concentration camp sim city" my ar*e - how do you go from historically accurate designation of WW2-era Waffen SS formations/units to simulating the great European genocide of the last century is truly a mystery to me.

Whatever the 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf" was composed of, it was a real military unit which participated in real military campaigns and battles. The historical record is well known. If a scenario designer chooses to use authentic SS runes to designate historical Waffen SS formations/units that is up to him/her. You have no say in the matter.

[sstevens06]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

...
My own country was throwing people out of airplanes 30 years ago over the Atlantic.
...

And which country was that?

[Ike99]

17poundr-As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'! How many can you incinerate a day??? With ofcourse the words 'arbeit macht frei', on the game cover with emaciated inmates in their striped shirts in the baground...

Ahhh, come now. Such a thing is not a war game and a game of this type would be pushing an ideology. Wargames don´t do that.

[Ike99]

And which country was that?

Argentina. The military dictatorship was torturing and throwing Communist out of planes, etc.

And anyone who says Communism isn´t a threat and has run its course should stop into one of the football stadiums they fill up next time Chavez is in town.[:@]

[desert]

I wish that were true. Basically harmless to you and where you are, not where I am. Ever heard of Castro, Chavez, Che Guevara?

Well fortunately two of these are dead and one is on the way out. I do take your point- but on the whole real, thoroughbred communism has been given a complete testdrive by humanity, and they've opted to go for the economy model. We were never really able to get Fascism off the lot- and there's a temptation to go back and fire up the gas for another go.

[&:] I thought Che was the dead one. Castro and Chavez are still alive.

[sstevens06]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

And which country was that?

Argentina. The military dictatorship was torturing and throwing Communist out of planes, etc.

Understood. (Btw the Saudis dropped survivors of the 1979 Mahdi revolt in Mecca out of C-130s over the desert in the deep interior of Saudi Arabia.)

And anyone who says Communism isn´t a threat and has run its course should stop into one of the football stadiums they fill up next time Chavez is in town.[:@]

You'll get no argument from me about that! Members of my close family were murdered by communists in the 1940s - they are my 'blood enemies.'

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

ColinWright- I think with a bit of thought you'll realize the inaccuracy of this analogy. Whatever one might say about the military effectiveness or purpose of B-52 strikes on North Vietnam, it'd be a real stretch to argue that we carried them out because we thought that killing Vietnamese peasants was per se a good thing. Rightly or wrongly, morally or immorally, we thought of the raids as a means to the end of compelling North Vietnam to cease its attacks upon South Vietnam. The Germans did not kill Jews to get the US to make peace, Russia to make peace, or as a means to any other goal distinct from the murder itself. Killing Jews was an end in itself. This is where the comparison with the Holocaust really breaks down.

Colin one can always find an excuse to do what they want no matter how criminal. I guarantee you if asked Hitler wouldn´t have said he was killing Jews just because he felt like it. That it was an ¨end in itself.¨ I not sure about the reasoning, I haven´t looked into the history of it actually but he would have had something. Regardless of his reason it was obviously a criminal act.

Now you recognize that as a criminal but you can´t recognize the bombing of Vietnamese civilians in Vietnam as criminal, why not? Because your an American? What does 3 million+ peasants killed by bombings in N.Vietnam have to do with military objectives?

The US carpet bombed N.Vietnam Colin with more bombs than in all of WW2! Question ...uhhh...yeah, I think so. [:D]

Like I said before, anyone can come up with an excuse for doing criminal activity but the bombings of N.Vietnam were definately a criminal act any way you slice it. You can´t see that because your own flag is obstructing your vision. [;)]

I didn't say it wasn't a criminal act -- that's not necessary to my point. However, I will do you the courtesy of assuming you can see the moral difference between that and an act like the holocaust quite clearly. If you can't, correct me so that I can revise my opinion of you accordingly.

Imagine 3 million+ Americans dead in bombings and some Arab telling you we thought it was legit way to get the USA to stop destroying Iraq.[8|] Doesn´t hold much water does it but that´s exactly what your saying with Vietnam!

Ans such a crime, intolerable as it would be, would still be qualitatively different from the Holocaust. All crimes are not the same. If I get cornered by the cops and manage to shoot one down, that's morally different from whacking a school child walking home with my sniper rifle.

One could easily compile similar lists for other countries. The massacre of Algerian protestors in France in the late fifties. The program of chemical sterilization (or whatever) for genetic defectives in Sweden in the sixties.

A few political actions you disagree with do not a fascist state make. In any case, there's nothing fascist at all about at least two-thirds of the items on your list.

Well yeah your right, your country, my country, everyones country if it has a longer history than a week has done something very bad in its history. And that´s my point exactly, you ban one symbol from a wargame you need to ban them all because no one has a country with clean hands.

Noo...

First off, if you read my posts with any care, you will discover that I would forcefully oppose banning the Swastika or any other symbol in this country. However, if you keep reading, you will discover the reasons why I think Germany is quite within her rights to ban the swastika and nordic runes if she sees fit.

Genocide? Let´s ban the crossed swords of the US Cavalry and custer for riding into indian villages and killing man woman and child.

Lol. I think the largest killing of Indians Custer was ever involved in produced something on the order of sixty civilian fatalities. There was armed resistance taking place at the time, incidentally. Don't even get me started on Europeans, the left, and their fantasies about the history of Indian-White relations in this country.

Not to pick on the US because all countries have these histories. My own country was throwing people out of airplanes 30 years ago over the Atlantic. Yeah they had a reason too, it was criminal of course and there is no excuse but yeah...they had a reason.[8|]

Silvanski-What we do when we wargame is re-create events from the past with OOB's as accurate as they can get.
IMHO the use of SS rhunes is part of that, just like NKVD units.

We all have common sense to aknowledge the wrong which was done by such and such.

My mom, who lived through the occupation from 1940-1944 is not shocked by seeing swastikas depicted in movies, wargames and model airplanes. In her words "That was part of the stuff what was going on"

I agree completely. Historical context, not glorifying the criminal acts or symbols, not pushing any ideology. Perfectly acceptable in a wargame context...to me. I don´t see swasticas in wargames as opening Pandoras box in Germany. They already see them in movies and museums and such I´m sure Colin. They already see them in wargames I´m sure too Colin it´s just not advertised.

It just dumbs down the history to me Colin.

So you think the Swastica & SS symbol should be banned in wargames Colin? Maybe I´m misunderstanding you.

As we've established, you are. In fact, more than that -- you're imagining I've said things I haven't said.

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

17poundr-As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'! How many can you incinerate a day??? With ofcourse the words 'arbeit macht frei', on the game cover with emaciated inmates in their striped shirts in the baground...

Ahhh, come now. Such a thing is not a war game and a game of this type would be pushing an ideology. Wargames don´t do that.

I don't see why in particular: almost everything inevitably 'pushes an ideology.' Hell, watch commercials and the evening news.

Anyway, if I ever feel like doing a scenario covering some situation like this, I'll go right ahead. Auschwitz sounds a bit dull, but I could see a nice 'Operation Erntefest' or perhaps an 'Israel 1948.' Gotta force drive out enough Arab civilian units before you trip the Arab invasion and the consequent ceasefire.

Moreover, as the last example illustrates, covering a situation in a scenario doesn't necessarily endorse the ideology.

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

And which country was that?

Argentina. The military dictatorship was torturing and throwing Communist out of planes, etc.

And anyone who says Communism isn´t a threat and has run its course should stop into one of the football stadiums they fill up next time Chavez is in town.[:@]

Chavez would be a menace regardless of what ideology he professed. He's one of those guys you're relieved to see is on the other team.

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

What??? Thacher bestowed 'numerous benefits on Britain'??? Should I take this as somekind of sarcasm? Yes, it must be sarcasm... As I remember it, M.Tacher managed to get Britain some new nuclear missiles that it needed like a second nose on a boxer... Oh, and there was the poll tax! What a winner! And she managed to change my Granfathers voting from a lifetime of voting Tory, to voting Lib-Dem...

I mean, she started the downgrading of British public health (wich is all the more sad as Britain was the first country in the world to get in a public health bill)...

And after her time as PM, she distinguished her self as the calendar girl of the tobakko industry... Oh, and good chum of Augusto Pinochet, the famous dictator who's regime torured, raped, kidnapped and killed countless Chilean's after taking the reigns of power in a shameful military overthrow of the legitimate goverment, and there is proof on recorded radio traffic from the day of the attack on the house of the Chilean parliament, where the legit leader Alliende and ohters, were defending their lives rifles and helmets donned and all... Against troops loyal to Pinochet, who had not only total manpower superiority, but also bombed the very place of Democracy... In the taped conversation, Pinochet says, "If he (Alliende), sues for peace and fly's out of Chile, we'll shoot the Bastard down before he get's out of Chile", or something very close to those words... So, he was also a direct murderer... Yepp, just one of Marvelous Maggies chums...

I remember England before Thatcher. Visited it a couple of times. It had all but finished its mission of exiting the First World for the Second. Rapidly becoming a card-carrying member of the Greece-Mexico-Thailand etc club.

Thatcher reversed all that.

As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'! How many can you incinerate a day??? With ofcourse the words 'arbeit macht frei', on the game cover with emaciated inmates in their striped shirts in the baground...

There is a limit to what is actually wize Gentlemen... I do not feel that folks in many parts of the world would understand somebody playing a game where SS Totenkopf deaths head units are romping through Europe... Why? Because unlike mosts Waffen SS units, who were simply elite soldiers, with some shootings of pow's, but this happened on all sides sometimes, ok?

Just as a red herring, note that there's been considerable research of late in Germany showing that regular German army units frequently participated in rounding up Jews, conducting punitive expeditions against civilian populations, etc. Look up some of the massacres carried out by German mountain troops in Greece.

It wasn't just Totenkopf -- and it wasn't just the SS. That's a convenient out.

But, Totenkopf was made up of the camp guard side of the SS, to proove that they too could fight, and fight they did, but were also most consistent in war crimes in Russia... Well, that's my humble oppinion... Do what you want, luckily for the Anglo - Americans, we have a system of goverment that let's us have a long degree of free speach... But there are places where one must use one's own judgement... Perhaps this is one of them???

Yours truly,

Mr Poundr.

Ehh... I haven't felt my free speech to be impaired here yet. That may happen yet -- but if so, it would be the perogative of the owners. You want to be assured you can say whatever you please, open your own site.

[17poundr]

seems that some people have a very rigid sence of humour here! [8D] Goosfraba!

The whole subject was so extreme, that I thought I would take it to an extreme example, that just might come true in the idea starved game world... But I'll stick to toaw III, and the likes of it personally...

And about the freedom of speach, I was saying that we have the anglo-american allies in ww2 to thank for that priviledge we are exercising right now...

The gentleman suggesting I go and write on another thread, is in fact already practising a form of stifling that right, or just was messing around with me... That's ok. Then I'm the fool who didnt get it! [:D]

My point about the Totenkopf, and that the death head symbol means more than just another SS division, is that the SS deaths head was synonymous with the consentration camps, and the mass murders carried out especially in Russia, but in every country under the rule of the SS, and Gestapo...

Many people would probably react more strongly if you had units with the deaths head on them, instead of 3rd SS...

And, yes I know that many a German division was really going for the 'special orders' read to them in the beginning of Barbarossa... Let us give each other the benefit of the doubt that most of us know more about ww2 than your average layman...

Otherwise, I have no qualms about the marking of the tens of SS divisions in their correct names and numbers... I would love to have the name always put on, and I think this is sometimes practiced, but sometimes not...

For example, in the Italian campaign scenario, one get's to read that you are fighting the 'Hermann Göring' div, but in the Normandy scenario it's the '12th SS' for the Hitler Jugend div... I belive that both should be displayed, as this is how the Germans marked them themselves... Perhaps if having a look at say a unit icon more closely, the name of the division could be displayed???

Something like 2ss 'DasReich', seems much cooler! [:)]

Mr Poundr.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

What??? Thacher bestowed 'numerous benefits on Britain'??? Should I take this as somekind of sarcasm? Yes, it must be sarcasm... As I remember it, M.Tacher managed to get Britain some new nuclear missiles that it needed like a second nose on a boxer...

It's funny that the people who think Britain needs to have a foriegn policy independent from the United States are the same ones who don't want us to have a nuclear deterrent. Clearly, the former requires the latter.

Oh, and there was the poll tax!

And that's why she was forced out of office by her own party.

I mean, she started the downgrading of British public health

Public healthcare has declined because we insist on wasting huge amounts of money on pointless yet extraordinarily expensive care for people who are going to die anyway.

As to the Totenkopf skull... What next??? Maybe 'consentration camp sim city'!

You have no sense of proportion.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Colin one can always find an excuse to do what they want no matter how criminal. I guarantee you if asked Hitler wouldn´t have said he was killing Jews just because he felt like it. That it was an ¨end in itself.¨ I not sure about the reasoning, I haven´t looked into the history of it actually but he would have had something. Regardless of his reason it was obviously a criminal act.

He considered that the world would be better without Jews. Since there were Jews in existence, his favoured course of action was to kill the lot of them as quickly as possible. It's really pretty clear cut.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: desert

[&:] I thought Che was the dead one. Castro and Chavez are still alive.

[/quote]

Castro hasn't been seen in public for several years now- and his brother runs the country.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

For example, in the Italian campaign scenario, one get's to read that you are fighting the 'Hermann Göring' div, but in the Normandy scenario it's the '12th SS' for the Hitler Jugend div... I belive that both should be displayed, as this is how the Germans marked them themselves...

Here we get to the crux of the issue: We need to have twice as much space for unit names. I need to be able to have 70th (Young Soldier) Battalion, The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders!