Armor Penetrations for AT rifle & 20mm??

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 12:51 am

I may be missing it somewhere obvious, but I don't see the armor penetration factors for my AT-rifles or 20mm HE rounds. Right-clicking on my Sk-251 and Pz-IIs shows a penetration chart for 20mm AP and APCR, but nothing about HE. In MC-LV, I have tons of HE and very little, if any AP, rounds.

I figure scout cars (BA-10s?) and BT-7s are fair game for AT rifles and 20mm HE cannon fire and I figure it is only harassing fire to shoot at T-34s and KV-1s. Between there, though, I have no idea what the chance of a kill is.

I would sure like to know when I need to send a prayer along with my shots. Thanks for the answer in advance.

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 4:52 am

I believe the AT rifle penetration listed is always so. Its ammo is just listed like other small arms weapons, as HE. It should still penetrate at its listed rate. The same may be true for the 20mm. I'm not 100% on the 20mm though.

Goblin- A Goblin prefers 75mm.

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Wed May 01, 2002 1:11 am

But where is the penetration listed? I looked again last night and I still don't see the penetrations for AT-rifle and 20mm HE. Like I said before, I may be missing something obvious. Help!!

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Wed May 01, 2002 1:19 am

Right on the purchase or encyclopedia screen under 'max penetration'. I believe this is just a simple overlook. The ammo happens to be listed under HE (like small arms are), but penetrates as an AP round. It may be in the unit info screen too, probably listed under AP penetration. I think the problem comes from the loadout screen treating these small bore weapons as small arms, but the unit info screen treating them as cannon.

Goblin- A Goblin is happy to assist

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Wed May 01, 2002 10:04 pm

Originally posted by Goblin
I believe the AT rifle penetration listed is always so. Its ammo is just listed like other small arms weapons, as HE. It should still penetrate at its listed rate. The same may be true for the 20mm. I'm not 100% on the 20mm though.

Goblin- A Goblin prefers 75mm.

I have noticed that the first game (in a campain) you first buy an ATR shows it's penetration table. At least it use to I haven't checked lately.

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Thu May 02, 2002 1:39 am

Thanks Goblin, I forgot about the Max Penetration line in the unit info. It would sure be nice to see how the penetration decreases with range though. But some info is better than no info.

And, pbear, I'll check on what you said the next time I start a campaign. I'm having too much fun in MCLV right now to do that though.

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Thu May 02, 2002 1:42 am

I believe the rounds use the AP penetration number, so the numbers on the unit info screen for AP are probably correct.

Goblin- A Goblin crunches numbers:)

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Thu May 02, 2002 1:51 am

For the KwK30 L/55 (20mm), its AP/HE pen is 38(1 hex), 34(10), 29(20), 25(30), and 20(40). For APCR its 63(1), 40(10). Note that the 222 scout car in the German OOB starts with 48 rounds of 'HE' and 6 of APCR. Those 48 'HE' are the ones that use the PEN listed above for AP/HE. In the unit info screen, its just called AP.

Goblin- A Goblin is scholarly:)

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Thu May 02, 2002 3:34 am

Goblin, you're sure that when I see that I only have HE left I should understand it to mean that 20mm cannons fire HE with the same effect as AP? I like that!!

It makes sense, I guess, since the load out is usually HE and APCR, with no mention of AP but with AP penetration charts provided. Thanks, you probably just sealed the fate for many of my scout cars. I'll use them more agressively now (with the unfortunate anticipated result).

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Thu May 02, 2002 3:42 am

Yep. The rnds should read HEAP. They do both, as evidenced by the many tanks and APC's killed by the 20mm, not to mention the infantry. The game will treat the rounds properly based on the target.. You'll see. Enjoy.

Goblin- A Goblin sees the future

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Thu May 09, 2002 1:30 pm

Originally posted by Goblin
Yep. The rnds should read HEAP.

If so, the logic deduction is that in reality was a single type of HE and AP for this. You called HEAP. I don't think so was in reality: one is HE and one is AP (ofcourse we can read: one effect have HE and other the AP !). And if it is not so (one single type of ammo), than how can I know in game how many rounds I still left for HE and AP from a total of HEAP ?

Leo.

They do both, as evidenced by the many tanks and APC's killed by the 20mm, not to mention the infantry. The game will treat the rounds properly based on the target.. You'll see. Enjoy.

Goblin- A Goblin sees the future

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Thu May 09, 2002 8:54 pm

Since, in the game, the rounds do both, the ammo readout on the unit info screen will tell you how much you have left. In reality, 20mm HE ammunition is mixed on a 3:1 or 4:1 bases with API ammunition. When the game says a unit has 48 ammo, I believe it means 48 bursts of ammo, thus you are hitting with both AP and HE rounds. No autcannon unit in real life carried only 48 rounds. This is why the gun affects armor and infantry equally well, you are spraying them with both types of rounds.

Goblin- A Goblin loves the word 'Autocannon':)

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Thu May 09, 2002 9:47 pm

O.K.

Now I imagine what it is. Automatic burst of ammo ! Because it's autocanon (automatic loading gun)! Yes ? But a few question:

1 all WWII 20 mm guns were autocannons ?
2. because this bursts of ammo I supposed the damage inflicted by this weapon to be much more significant; it's not a only one round but burst of ammo which means multiple rounds. Take an example: if such burst is fired against an infantry squad I assumed that it is a higher procent that a round of this burst to hit somebody; or another: if that burst is fired against an armored vehicle, it is higher probable that some rounds to hit the same area and weakens this area (which makes this 20 mm autocanon a redutable oponent even for better armored units, or this targeted unit is hit by much more rounds in differnt locations and that seems the game doesn't simulate !

Have I'm wrong ?

Leo.

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Thu May 09, 2002 10:11 pm

1.) I don't know. I believe most 20mm are/were autos.
2.) IMO the game reflects the burst by giving the gun an increased accuracy, thus an increased chance to hit (more rounds downrange, more chance to hit). You really notice an increase in this when you get multi-barreled guns. (OOB editor, under weapons) The more barrels (and thus shots) the more the accuracy increases.

www.wwiivehicles.com

This site has data on several units that carried the 20mm, along with info on the gun. The SdKfz 222 carried 180 rounds for the 20mm, but the game shows 48. Must be small burst of ammunition, of a mixed nature.

Goblin- A Goblin loves that site:eek:

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Fri May 10, 2002 4:09 pm

Originally posted by Goblin
1.) I don't know. I believe most 20mm are/were autos.

With the exception of 20mm ATR's (bolt action) all 20mm's were auto.