Norwegian Entry

[JudgeDredd]

I am playing the Norwegian Entry scenario where you have to get you surface group to Bergen for the minimum victory.

I did this (despite running aground and losing 3 ships...a little annoying that you cannot tell how close to land your ships can go...they didn't look that close to me) and as told I had achieved the minimum victory conditions. I was also asked if I wanted to go for total victory. Well, being the megalomaniac I am, I choose yes...but was not presented with anymore orders...so I have no idea what I am meant to do for total victory!

Any ideas? If there is subsequently something I can do for total victory, perhaps the game could tell me? The briefing only states what I should do for a minimum victory.

Also, although it says I have achieved the minimum victory requirements, I haven't...I am meant to get the majority of my force to Bergen and defend them for 12 hours. But I have only just got my group to Bergen. I haven't defended them for 12 hours. Is it because I have destroyed Bergen with Tomahawks and strike aircraft? Is the "Total Victory" condition that I sit there for 12 hours? Was the 12 hours from the start of the scenario (there are only 7 hours left) or 12 hours from when I get to Bergen?

[JudgeDredd]

Another thing....I cannot seem to find out what the makeup of a group is.

Common sense is to select the group and, from the group window, select the dsplay button, but that shows you all objects.

How do I see what's in a group?

As an example, I created 2 air groups for patrol from Kinloss. 1 with AWACS and the other with a Nimrod and both with 2 F15s as cap. However, I can't see what group has what in them...so I'm not entirely sure which group is which.

I think the display button on the group window should show the components of the group selected.

[Divefreak]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I am playing the Norwegian Entry scenario

Hmm the solution to your ViCond Problem:

not enough ships for enough time in the right place.

min Viconds 3ships 2h
Full Vicond 4 ships 2.5h

Regards René

[mack2]

GIUK scen 10 - Norweigan Entry

Total Victory Condition is set in the editor to: 4 ships on station for 2 hours 30 minutes.

[JudgeDredd]

ok. But I think the problem is the breifing is extremely unclear then.

The briefing states, for minimum victory conditions...
Minimum Victory Conditions:  Get the majority of your amphibious ships safely to Bergen and defend them successfully for twelve hours.

Now there are several things to note about the briefing here...
[ol][*]it mentions nothing of Total Victory conditions
[*]It says get the majority what constitutes a majority?
[*]it states defend them successfully for 12 hours...now the game starts with only 7hrs 24 minutes on the clock, so I am assuming the 12 hour thing is incorrect? If not, then it needs clarification[/ol]
You know it sounds picky, but it's kind of difficult to complete your objectives when you do not have any idea what your objectives are.

As far as the scenario goes, it was great and I thoroughly enjoyed it...I just would liek to know what the aim of the scenario is.

Thx for posting.

[Divefreak]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ok. But I think the problem is the breifing is extremely unclear then.

The main Problem is that those Battlesets before EC2003 and Westpac are old, really old and the designers/programmers can´t change them for some reasons.

But i´ve startet with rewriting those old scens/battlesets with the EC2003 Sets, so they benefit from the editable database (in this case my HC-Euro-DB) and they can make use of newer functionaltys like refueling etc. My Battlesets will be should be availbe soon. (depending how much work i get for my company(real live outside poon) [8D])

Regards René

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Divefreak

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ok. But I think the problem is the breifing is extremely unclear then.

The main Problem is that those Battlesets before EC2003 and Westpac are old, really old and the designers/programmers can´t change them for some reasons.

But i´ve startet with rewriting those old scens/battlesets with the EC2003 Sets, so they benefit from the editable database (in this case my HC-Euro-DB) and they can make use of newer functionaltys like refueling etc. My Battlesets will be should be availbe soon. (depending how much work i get for my company(real live outside poon) [8D])

Regards René

ok. I didn't know what was what. I thought the game was a new version of Harpoon and the scenarios were new.

What is EC2003 sets etc...what do the "sets" reprisent? Are they the "estabs" equivelant in COTA terms...ie the sets of hardware currently available in that period?

Like I said, the scenario was good anyway. It would just be nice to have a definitive set of objectives...to tell ask the user "Do you want to go for total victory?" and not inform him what he has to do for total victory seems a bit, well, empty

[Divefreak]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ok. I didn't know what was what. I thought the game was a new version of Harpoon and the scenarios were new.

What is EC2003 sets etc...what do the "sets" reprisent? Are they the "estabs" equivelant in COTA terms...ie the sets of hardware currently available in that period?

Tony posted some where the History of Harpoon. With each new Classic Version there came new battlesets and the old were kept. The EC2003 and Westpac use the HCDB (shipped with the game)or any other editable User DB. So Yes you can say they represent the actual military Hardware.

We tried to modell WW2 Stuff toob ut it didn´t work as desiered.

At the Moment there are at least 4 DBs for HCE.

1. HCDB from Brad shipped with the game (usefull for all areas we have now) I´m not sure about the timeperiod coverd.

2. HC-Euro-DB, from me it covers mainly Europe, the med and a bit of the IOPG area. time period form 1980 to now. Often modeling ships with mulitple entrys each entry representing a specified period of time.


3. The HC-Atlantic-DB covers Africa, America (also south and central!!) and Australia. This db will be usefull when the user editable Battlesets become availbe. It covers the same period of time as my Euro-DB does an also shares the pilosophie for Units, weapons and sensors.

4. Tonys HC-Strykerfictionaldb. featuring mostly fictional units.

Regards René

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
What is EC2003 sets etc...what do the "sets" reprisent? Are they the "estabs" equivelant in COTA terms...ie the sets of hardware currently available in that period?

The EC2003 battlesets are a large collection of scenarios that follow a storyline, that storyline more or less being a hypothetical conflict between the USA and European states (and their respective allies). These scenarios were originally created in the mid 1990s to project forward what such a war might look like in the early 21st century.

Like I said, the scenario was good anyway. It would just be nice to have a definitive set of objectives...to tell ask the user "Do you want to go for total victory?" and not inform him what he has to do for total victory seems a bit, well, empty

IMHO, a good scenario designer should give you a general idea of what you need to do to accomplish your victory objectives, but in my opinion at least, not necessarily lay it out for you in very clear and precise terms. Real war, as we all know, isn't like that. Often you can determine for yourself what "victory" will mean in any given scenario, and if not, you do have the option of checking exactly what Victory Conditions are set by opening up the scenario in the Scenario Editor. [:)]

[SmittyG]

Hi All,

I think this question highlights a couple of issues in regard to victory conditions.

1. It would be nice if the victory condition code could be ported from the SE to the GE. Many scenarios give no clue as to what the victory conditions are in the instructions.

2. I think the victory condition logic has bugs. The bugs seem to be very ephemeral. They are very hard to pin down, and about the time I become convinced there are bugs, a new version of the game comes out. The problem is exaserbated by the fact that some scenarios have victory conditions that are not able to be satisfied... ie., types of units to be in a box, when those unit types aren't in the scenarios. Further, an SE problem exists (or use to exist) if particular bases must be destroyed. The bases are all given in a list to select from in the SE victory conditions. However, they aren't identified as RED or BLUE. If the scenario designer is setting VC's for BLUE, but picks the BLUE base from the list, you as a player won't ever be able to satisfy that victory condition. This is not a bug, just poor SE design. Also some scenarios have impossibly small boxes that have to be occupied to satisfy the victory conditions; a difficult feat if you have to remember where the box is located from opening the SE.

Just my thoughts,

R/ Smitty

[Shark7]

A 'Golden Rule' of scenario design that I like to follow is to always be very specific in the orders file as to what the player needs to accomplish to win your scenario. For example, in my Operation Island Wind scenario, you will notice in the orders that I spelled out that the (Large Structure) at the target area was the objective.

This is very important, because if players have no clue as to what they need to accomplish, they cannot achieve the objective, and it becomes frustrtating.

Here is another example of a vague order and a good order.


VicCond set to destroy 75 A/C and destroy 3 bases.

Vague: Gain air superiority.

Good: You are tasked with eliminating enemy air forces and airfields.

See the difference? The vague order only tells the player to shoot down A/C. The good order also lets him know that he needs to destroy the airfields as well. The player still does not know how many of each he must destroy, but he does know what he needs to do to get the objective accomplished and can work towards that end.

I hope aspiring scenario designers will find this helpfull.