Letters from Iwo Jima

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Hortlund
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Hortlund »

You're the apologist, not me.

Actually no. Im the guy telling you that it is wrong to kill civilians just because they happen to be born in the wrong country. Im the guy saying that its not ok to butcher POWs or commit all sorts of warcrimes just because "the other side did it first". At no time and in no form have I ever defended a warcrime or a crime against humanity committed by anyone.

You reply to that has been "yes it is, because it was TOTAL WAR, and besides, the civilians are to blame for their governments actions. When I asked you how on earth you arrived at that conclusion, and that your arguments had more holes in them than a swiss cheese, all I got was
ORIGINAL: Lava
I don't need to prove sh@t.

Well, no, you dont. But you should not expect to be taken seriously then.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by freder »

ORIGINAL: Lava



The Japanese and German people started wars that killed 50 million people. Ray (alias Lava)

Are the Germans smelly too, that's something I wonder about. I've been in Germany several times and I, personally, didn't had that impression. Their bratwurst smells a lot though, I can tell you!
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Im the guy telling you that it is wrong to kill civilians just because they happen to be born in the wrong country.

Then you shouldn't be defending the Germans and Japanese who did... and with arrogant, self-rightous, racial inspired pride I might add... these folks thought they were Superhumans who could treat people like vermin... until they got their asses kicked for doing so.

And don't give me this baloney their people didn't know or disapprove. They believed. And that is why they fought to the bitter end. Their people believed. And that does not only make them individually guilty, but collectively as well.

Ray (alias Lava)
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Erik Rutins »

Everyone,

Please ratchet down the personal attacks. This can be a heated discussion without being a heated _personal_ discussion. This issue in general is fine for discussion on our boards and it's a very passionate one for some, but let's keep to debating the issue rather than each other.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
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Reiryc
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


I dont know how it is even possible to reach such an argument. It strikes me as beyond stupid to try to argue like that. By "that standard" guilt is determined on an individual basis. That means this SS guard is guilty as hell.

As I have already taught you and you have even agreed to, guilt is not always determined on an individual basis. So why continue with this misnomer when you've already agreed that it isn't true?

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Dino »

ORIGINAL: Doggie

I haven't said a word about firebombing anybody in their homes, either.

You haven't??? Let's look at this post once again...CAREFULLY!

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Yes, we're telling you the Japanese were bloodthirsty baby killers. It's a historical fact witnessed by tens of thousands of people who experienced their compassion first hand. Now a days they wouldn't hurt a fly. Curtiss Lemay did a lot toward gentling them down and making them downright reasonable.

Now, what was it exactly that Curtis LeMay did to make this filthy race acceptable? I don't remember him being famous for bombing the IJA troops in the field... Truth is that you don't say much, but you sure do imply a lot.

What I have said is the truth, that Japanese soldiers were sadistic savages and deserve no sympathy.

ALL of them???

Sorry...I see that you already answered that:
PH: Wow, such stereotyping. No Japanese soldier ever did anything nice for anyone, is that what you are saying? All Japanese soldiers were incarnations of pure evil?

Doggie: Yes. I would say that just about sums it up.

Hang on a second...were they ALL incarnations of pure evil or not??? [8|]

Kindly show us where any of us racists has said Japanese should have been executed on sight.

...and what should one do with "pure evil"?

It would also be nice of YOU to stop hiding behind a plural.

"Racism; the first refuge of the scoundrel" Copyright Doggie, 2000. Racism is what you deal when you have no coherent arguments.

Finally something coherent...[&o] [&o] [&o]

But you can call it bigotry or prejudice if it makes you feel better.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by morvwilson »

I think that at this point there should be a few points made I think have fallen through the cracks.
The argument of collective or individual guilt in the context of a war I find a little silly.

As Gen. Sherman said, "War is all hell". War in and of itself is an evil but from time to time a necissary one because sometimes some people just don't play nice. (Adolf Hitler or The Japanese Emperor, for instance)

As for who is guilty of "War Crimes", that is usually for the winner to decide.

As to civilian casualties, while it is regretible, again it is sometimes unavoidable. And remember, a modern army can not function with out a civillian population to back it up. Remember what Sadam did when he had some anti war visitors from the west? He herded them around his oil and ammunition supplies because he thought that would keep us from attacking them.

We hear copious amounts of complaints about civillian casualties now, but not then. Could it be there was a better understanding in the past?

As to the legal ramifications of collective or individual guilt, it is realy irrelevant untill the argument that started the war is settled in battle.

Now, as to the legal profession, I think it is something like 90-95% of the politicians in the western countries are lawyers. The things that these politicians are supposed to be good at are: negotiation and compromise. The wars happen when this system breaks down. (between repulbics or democrocies this if verrry rare). That is why I think that the legal types should stay out of fighting wars, their mind set is typically not up to the task.

As to the racism arguments, I view them as complete foolishness. This is normally the word thrown out when all other arguments fail.
Does racism exist? Yes! But it exists from ALL angles. You don't have to be a white anglosaxon protestant (wasp) to be a racist.

My personal view, race is irrelevant. What matters is a person's deeds and capabilities! NOTHING ELSE!

My 2 cents, (but wife keeps saying I don't have any! lol)
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by morvwilson »

New thought,

A lot of credit is given to Japanese prowess in battle because of the 800 year civil war that was fought there.
But, it seems to me that thier actions during WW2 displayed a lack of experience. For instance I have read veteran's accounts of Japanese soldiers refusing to take cover during artillery bombardments, they prefered to trust to carma. Their method of attack and blindly following orders (ie their first counter attack at Henderson Field, one regiment attacking a Marine div.?) Even their method of treating prisoners and internees?

I think that maybe there is too much credit given to Japan for that 800 year civil war and maybe not enough credit given to the west for their 3000 year civil war. (earliest formal war I can think of being Troy around 1200 BC).

Where am I wrong?
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by mikul82 »

ORIGINAL: morvwilson


We hear copious amounts of complaints about civillian casualties now, but not then. Could it be there was a better understanding in the past?



On this point, I would think it more likely that in the past, one couldn't just hop on the internet and see a video posted of the civilians being slaughtered as one can now if so inclined. I would guess that this just wasn't widely shown/discussed outside of the militaries involved in WWII (or the people being bombed), plus at the time it wouldn't have been possible to skim over 6+ years of it in a history book. I would say there was actually LESS understanding, or at least no way for many to actually see what was happening to civilians.

Also, IMO the older style of propanganda just doesn't work anymore either. I'm thinking of WWII era posters from all sides depicting everyone from the opposing countries as savages, evil, etc. In the day and age in which I can log onto the internet and talk to people in almost any country, this sort of thing doesn't cut it anymore. You can't convince me that a whole nation of people are "bad" (although it isn't hard for me to believe that their leader(s) are charlatans using their people only for their own interests- and I feel the same about our supposed "leaders" here in the US as well) when I can log on and talk to some of them about playing computer games, bodybuilding, or whatever else hobbies that I share with them.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by morvwilson »

ORIGINAL: mlc82
ORIGINAL: morvwilson


We hear copious amounts of complaints about civillian casualties now, but not then. Could it be there was a better understanding in the past?



On this point, I would think it more likely that in the past, one couldn't just hop on the internet and see a video posted of the civilians being slaughtered as one can now if so inclined. I would guess that this just wasn't widely shown/discussed outside of the militaries involved in WWII (or the people being bombed), plus at the time it wouldn't have been possible to skim over 6+ years of it in a history book. I would say there was actually LESS understanding, or at least no way for many to actually see what was happening to civilians.

Also, IMO the older style of propanganda just doesn't work anymore either. I'm thinking of WWII era posters from all sides depicting everyone from the opposing countries as savages, evil, etc. In the day and age in which I can log onto the internet and talk to people in almost any country, this sort of thing doesn't cut it anymore. You can't convince me that a whole nation of people are "bad" (although it isn't hard for me to believe that their leader(s) are charlatans using their people only for their own interests- and I feel the same about our supposed "leaders" here in the US as well) when I can log on and talk to some of them about playing computer games, bodybuilding, or whatever else hobbies that I share with them.
What about the American experience during the Civil War? Gen. Sherman's march to the sea for instance.
There were still some living vets of that war during WW2. I am sure others can present examples of other unpleasant things happening in prior conflicts that would be in LIVING memory during WW2.

It appears to me that while communications tech. has vastly improved since WW2, understanding has slipped.
Understanding of what war is and why they need to be fought I think has slipped.

"All it takes for the forced of evil to rule this world is for good people to do nothing."


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wesy
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by wesy »

Going to your point here. I would read,Shattered Sword by Jon Parshall and Anthony Tully. Remember Japan was the first nation to fully grasp the carrier task force. Their doctrine of mass, coordinated airstrikes was revolutionary and has become the basis on which we (US) project power to this day. Japan was fighting the economic equivalent of Godzilla. There was no way Japan (or Germany) was going to win WWII.

That being said, many of their tactics/technology (and I mean tactics since they really lacked any "grand strategy") were very advanced by prewar standards and they tended to be dogmatic in their use of specific tactics (especially early in the war - i.e. the Ichiki dettachment @ Guadacanal, defend at the beach (until Peleliu and Iwo Jima). The Japanese surface engagements at night (Savo Island etc.) use of oxygen torpedoes (long lance) etc.

The US was quick to learn and make effective changes and use technology to it's advantage - think CIC (i.e. coordinated Radar coodinated CAP), Proximity fuses, coordinated artillery strikes (ask the germans specifcally about this one.), THE BEST search and fire control radar (think US DP 5" weapons - with proximity). Not to mention the war below the sea, where the US used its ability to break codes and use/coordinate a very very effective strangulation of Japan's strategic resources. Many of the Japanese tactics (later in the war) were of desperation. Kamikazes - enough planes, but not enough well trained pilots...really was a precursor to today's anti shipping missiles - think manned Harpoons.

And most importantly of all...the US also had the BEST logistical tail ANYWHERE - to move masses of troops to Europe, cover the I mean HUGE HUGE PTO with what seemed to the Axis powers of endless ordance, equipment and things like Ice Cream etc. was a sure sign to any sane individual that war with the US is hopeless cause in a symmetrical "total war".
ORIGINAL: morvwilson

New thought,

A lot of credit is given to Japanese prowess in battle because of the 800 year civil war that was fought there.
But, it seems to me that thier actions during WW2 displayed a lack of experience. For instance I have read veteran's accounts of Japanese soldiers refusing to take cover during artillery bombardments, they prefered to trust to carma. Their method of attack and blindly following orders (ie their first counter attack at Henderson Field, one regiment attacking a Marine div.?) Even their method of treating prisoners and internees?

I think that maybe there is too much credit given to Japan for that 800 year civil war and maybe not enough credit given to the west for their 3000 year civil war. (earliest formal war I can think of being Troy around 1200 BC).

Where am I wrong?
"I ran into Isosceles. He had a great idea for a new triangle!"...Woody Allen
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by morvwilson »

I do agree with your posting but, maybe I did not make myself clear.
When I said "inexperience", maybe immature or unseasoned would be a better fit.
 
There were certain attitudes that the Japanese military had that would betray this.
For instance the coordination between different branches of their military was almost non existant. (the raid on Pearl Harbor for instance was never approved by their cabinet prior to the raid.)
Not surrendering for instance. While all armies during WW2 would say fight to the last man, Japan was the only one to do this.
Not taking cover and trusting to carma.
There was an attitude that asking for more men or material was a sign of weakness or cowardice(sp?).
If your infantry detatchment was told to leave a given island, they usually did not take their supplies with them.
While the Japanese did show a number of inovations, I think they lacked the seasoning or maturity that 3000 years of fighting in Europe supplied the west.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by mjk428 »

ORIGINAL: mlc82

On this point, I would think it more likely that in the past, one couldn't just hop on the internet and see a video posted of the civilians being slaughtered as one can now if so inclined. I would guess that this just wasn't widely shown/discussed outside of the militaries involved in WWII (or the people being bombed), plus at the time it wouldn't have been possible to skim over 6+ years of it in a history book. I would say there was actually LESS understanding, or at least no way for many to actually see what was happening to civilians.

They had newspapers, newsreels and radio. I'm quite sure that the average American was at least as well informed on world affairs as the average American now. They understood the context of the events. They also weren't as full of themselves as we are today.
Also, IMO the older style of propanganda just doesn't work anymore either. I'm thinking of WWII era posters from all sides depicting everyone from the opposing countries as savages, evil, etc. In the day and age in which I can log onto the internet and talk to people in almost any country, this sort of thing doesn't cut it anymore. You can't convince me that a whole nation of people are "bad" (although it isn't hard for me to believe that their leader(s) are charlatans using their people only for their own interests- and I feel the same about our supposed "leaders" here in the US as well) when I can log on and talk to some of them about playing computer games, bodybuilding, or whatever else hobbies that I share with them.

"Old Style" propaganda was seen for what it was here in this country*. Americans have always been cynical of their government. They did love FDR though. BTW, it doesn't matter if you're not convinced that the "other guys" are evil, if they're convinced you are. You're still in a fight for your life - and probably at a distinct disadvantage.

They didn't need to meet foreigners on the internet because many of them were first generation immigrants. I have family that died from both sides of the war. Generally, they were the people they were fighting - even some Japanese.

Happily humanitarian concerns didn't paralyze them into inaction. They did what they had to do, took a little pride in a job well done, and then got on with their lives.

Maybe someday we'll be able to be one big happy world family but as long as there are those with no interest in such there will be the need to violently oppose them. The really sad thing is that the one big happy world family is much more likely to happen through assimilation rather than us all suddenly stopping our evil ways.


*See the excerpt of the letter I posted re: dismissal of propaganda and views of the enemy from a typical US soldier.

tm.asp?m=1605591&mpage=2

I'll repost it here for convenience.
...I find myself hating these damn Jerries more and more. If I don't watch myself, I'll be asking to go back up there again. I suppose by
this time you people have seen pictures of what the Nazis did to these people of these countries over here. If you hear anybody say it's
just propaganda you can just call him a liar. Every bit of it's true and there were some things that couldn't be shown. I'm a pretty peace
loving guy, but what we saw over here made it possible for us to actually enjoy killing these Jerries. Usually when you shoot one your
stomach does a little flip and then settles down. No more tho. I've seen guys almost pray that some German would stick his head up. I guess
now the civilians have some idea as why there can be no deals made with our boy Adolph. He'll get his deal off the end of some G.I. rifle.
But enough of such morbid conversation...
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Doggie »

ORIGINAL: Dino

Now, what was it exactly that Curtis LeMay did to make this filthy race acceptable? I don't remember him being famous for bombing the IJA troops in the field... Truth is that you don't say much, but you sure do imply a lot.

Curtiss Lemay brought the reality of what the Japanese were doing to other people home to them. 1937 Japan was a nation full of warmongering fanatics who believed they were superior to everyone else on earth. 1946 Japan was a nation that no longer wanted anything to do with creating a fascist empire.
ALL of them???

Sorry...I see that you already answered that:

Same challenge to you that went to Superhuman Hortland - show me one area occupied by the Japanese where the people remember the experience fondly. There are countless thousands of Japanese and Germans who remember the American G.I.s who occupied their countries with admiration and respect. I personally met hundreds of them in 1970 era Bavaria. Many Germans who were children during the post war era thanked the Americans for preventing them from starving, as oppossed to the residents of eastern Germany and Triest who spit when ever a Russian or French soldier passed by.
Doggie: Yes. I would say that just about sums it up.

Yes, that does pretty much sum it up. Japanese soldiers were despised everywhere they set foot. For good reason. Even the French do not view the Germans with anywhere near the contempt with which the Japanese are regarded in every village the rising sun flag ever flew over.

Now how about some of you "humanitarians" back up your fantasies with some facts? Just once. Show us some people who were subjected to Japanese occupation who were grateful for the experience. There are streets in Belgium named after American soldiers. There are cemetaries all over Europe where citizens have 'adopted" the graves of American soldiers and tend to them some sixty years later. Show us a grave site for Japanese soldiers anywhere outside of Japan that does not also funtion as a urinal.

You can't. Because you have no facts. All you got is self rightous, hypocritical accusations of "racism" directed against the decendents of those who actually did confront racism and genocide while your ancestors did nothing.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by KG Erwin »

Curtis Lemay's decision to alter our bombing tactics and focus on fire-bombing had a neglible effect on Emperor Hirohito and his government. This WAS truly an evil regime.

We always go back to the atomic bomb argument, and yes, those WERE necessary to end the Pacific War.

That being said, Japan is now a valued ally. What's past is past. We have to let it go. Replaying old animosities is now done as entertainment.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by wesy »


Hi Morv - here IMHO are my answers to these questions:

1) I think you are using fairly broad generalizations (i.e. not taking cover) - Tarawa, Iwo Jima and other islands etc. were defended with significant defensive emplacements - to specifically try and nullify US bombardments and airstrikes. When you're defending a fairly small island, i don't care what country you're from, you're digging holes [;)]. Not taking cover...you could say that the European experience early in WWI should have taken note about the use of machine guns from the Russo-Japanese War (1904-05) and it's affect to light infrantry.

2) Coordination between "rival" services is typical amongst all countries, but I would agree that the Japanese took it to the extreme. Hey you could be Stalin and execute a significant number of your office cadre - i'm not so sure that was such a great idea. Or you could fault the US for basing the fleet in Pearl Harbor (did thousands of years of war in the west provide the US with the foresight of the US to have their fleet exposed?). I would say the tactical execution was rather good (sure you could argue that Nagumo should have hung around for another strike on fuel storage etc., but hey it's a lot easier to think about those things in hindsight, when you're not the one responsible for the task force [;)].

Another VERY IMPORTANT POINT you should be aware of was the military authority completely bypassed parliament. So in affect, they were like Blackwater (i.e. no accountability)

3) To your point about - not asking as a sign of weakness etc...as Donald Rumsfield recently stated at a US military base (i'm paraphrasing here so bare with me...) - "...you don't go to war with the army you want, but the army you have" (in response to us forces having to do field "upgrades" to APCs and Humvees etc. Sure you could ask for more, but let's face it, the Japanese were ALWAYS struggling with supplying their forces adequately - let alone asking for more...It's called a "stiff upper lip" in other cultures! It's a lot easier to ask for more when you have a fleet train and the logistical wherewithal to actually have the possibility of getting "more".

4) 3000 years of fighting in the West? What did the Italians learn from Cesaer? They struggled with the Ethiopians. What did Germany learn from WWI? Hmm...Let's get into another world conflict. uhh...it seemed they really learned little - sure you could argue, great training tactics, but hey let's invade the USSR. I'm not sure if they learned from Napolean...

One man's scorn for cover could be considered worthy...think about the silver, moh etc. It's doctrinal, fight to the death, sure i'd surrender, but if you're looking to slow an enemy from invading your country and your stuck on island with no hope of reinforcements, but the one day your forces hold out longer is another day from having your kids getting bombed a "bad" decision?

I would agree with you that it's wasteful, but I'm not sure what lessons those "thousands" of years of war in the west you're trying to point out.

At the end of the day, I'll use this example, the Japanese were like the IDF. The ability strike quickly with highly skilled forces. However, they completely lacked the industrial/technology base that the US had. Any prolonged conflict of attrition was doomed to failure.

I don't think you could say that it was thousands of years of warefare that doomed Japan, it was the perception that the US would not have the "will" to fight the war, misperceptions doom everyone throughout history of warfare.
ORIGINAL: morvwilson

I do agree with your posting but, maybe I did not make myself clear.
When I said "inexperience", maybe immature or unseasoned would be a better fit.

There were certain attitudes that the Japanese military had that would betray this.
For instance the coordination between different branches of their military was almost non existant. (the raid on Pearl Harbor for instance was never approved by their cabinet prior to the raid.)
Not surrendering for instance. While all armies during WW2 would say fight to the last man, Japan was the only one to do this.
Not taking cover and trusting to carma.
There was an attitude that asking for more men or material was a sign of weakness or cowardice(sp?).
If your infantry detatchment was told to leave a given island, they usually did not take their supplies with them.
While the Japanese did show a number of inovations, I think they lacked the seasoning or maturity that 3000 years of fighting in Europe supplied the west.
"I ran into Isosceles. He had a great idea for a new triangle!"...Woody Allen
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by morvwilson »

Points well taken, thanks. Guess my theory may need a little more work.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by 06 Maestro »

[font="times new roman"]wesy[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]You made a few good points, but a couple may be oversimpified.  There were some significant differences the Japanese and the western countries in both their methods of war, and in there expectation of victory.  The Axis nations were led to their destruction by arrogant, inept leadership.  There were plenty of professional leaders in Italy, and Germany that could clearly see the position they were in, but did not act to prevent disaster.  [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]The German General Staff was totally opposed to an invasion of Russia; even if they were optimistic about the outcome, it was viewed as unnecessary, and risky-even Goering was opposed to it.  Italian commanders openly remarked that walking through an army gun park (Italian) in 1939 was like walking through a museum.   (The Italian invasion of Ethiopia 4 years earlier was a walk in the park-first real “blitzkrieg”-unlike the earlier venture (in ’98?).   The point is, none of them were blind to the long history of warfare, but those that could still see clearly, were not running the show.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]The one thing that the Axis did that the Allies did not do was to count on the superior qualities of their soldiers over the mere quantity of weaponry.  They (Axis) fairly consistently put their forces in hopeless positions with the expectation of victory because will power, individual courage, the Bushido code, whatever, was more important than proper supply, and/or modern weapons in adequate quantities.  This was one of the main results of their arrogant and racist philosophy.  [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]The same arrogance that led to military defeat also led to ill treatment of POW’s and civilians that fell under their control.  The Japanese were particularly predisposed to ill treatment of prisoners, as in their culture, and military code, surrender was unthinkable.  In at least this last regard, the Japanese differed much from western nations.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]And once again, someone had to pay for Japanese aggression and brutality; it might as well be the Japanese.[/font]
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Dino »

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Curtis Lemay's decision to alter our bombing tactics and focus on fire-bombing had a neglible effect on Emperor Hirohito and his government. This WAS truly an evil regime.

We always go back to the atomic bomb argument, and yes, those WERE necessary to end the Pacific War.

That being said, Japan is now a valued ally. What's past is past. We have to let it go. Replaying old animosities is now done as entertainment.

Doggie’s reference to Curtis Lemay (on page 3) was made in a context that was clearly racist...well, at least it was clear enough to me.

As for the "atomic bomb argument", I (and a number of prominent Americans of the era) don’t quite agree that it was absolutely necessary...but, let’s not start yet another topic here.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Dino »

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Blah, blah, blah...

WOW...a fresh new day...a fresh new topic...a fresh new Doggie.

You are challenging me with facts that were never disputed...How about you provide some evidence that there's no life on Mars. [8|]

Ah well, at least we are making some progress here...from ALL Japanese being stinking savages that needed to be gentled by firebombing, we finally come to "a nation (that was) full of warmongering fanatics"...quite a leap (in right direction). But, with your record of racist remarks and willingness to <ahem> twist the truth, I somehow doubt that it was genuine.

As for the comparison of Japanese and US military, I believe that classifies as a classic STRAWMAN. Nobody here claimed that Japanese soldiers were generally nicer, equal, or even slightly worse than American G.I.s and Marines.

This whole turmoil started because one movie showed one Japanese soldier as - God forbid - a human being [X(]...something you are evidently not capable of perceiving as possible.

All you got is self rightous, hypocritical accusations of "racism" directed against the decendents of those who actually did confront racism and genocide while your ancestors did nothing.


No Doggie. My "self righteous, hypocritical accusations" of racism are directed at YOU and you only...Hiding behind your ancestors is not going to cut it...and wrapping up your racist views in "patriotism" is even more despicable.

As for my ancestors, they paid dearly for fighting on Allied side in both WW1 and WW2 ...yet, despite their horrendous sufferings, they brought me up not to be a hateful little racist...for which I thank them with all my heart.
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