Spot what I'm doing wrong...

[JudgeDredd]

I had a scenario where I had a Los Angeles sub.

I did the following

• set speed to cruise
• set heading south on a zig zag pattern
• set set sensors to intermittent (accepted defaults)

Next thing I know, it tells me there's an unidentified object. I highlight th object and it says "Torpedoes". But it's yellow...so I set my speed to creep and go deep.

I then get another report of another torpedo. So I change course East.

Next thing I know, the sub is hit...twice...and sinks.

An unseen foe. What did I do wrong? Why did I not detect the other sub (the torps "indicated" coming from the south (forward of my heading))? What can I do to avoid the torps? Should I have gone active with my sensors? Should I have increased speed away from the torps? Would I have outrun them? Did my sub drop counter measures (are they modelled?)?

Just a few questions for you Admiral Nimitz peeps out there [:D]

[Krasny]

well i'm a noob to the game, but.......

i think your sonar should have been off to start with

[mack2]

Active Sonar is suicide for a submarine that is in-transit or stalking.

It basically tells everyone with their ear in the water exactly where you are. You might as well surface the boat and start firing flares at the enemy ships whilst playing "Dancing Queen" on a loudspeaker.

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
An unseen foe. What did I do wrong? Why did I not detect the other sub (the torps "indicated" coming from the south (forward of my heading))?

Cruise speed in a Los Angeles class attack sub is 19 knots. Thats a pretty fair clip, and not altogether quiet. It also degrades your own passive sonar performance. Reserve your cruise speed setting for safer transits where you're either pretty sure they are no bad guys in front of you, or someone else is doing the ASW screening for you. If you must make good time, try to alternate between sprint and creep.

What can I do to avoid the torps? Should I have increased speed away from the torps? Would I have outrun them?

Run, Forrest, run. Typically, I'd drop to creep to try and localize the torpedoes and my attacker. Often, when you're being attacked by a helo or aircraft, they don't have a precise fix on you and the torpedo may simply be searching. If you're at the edge of its sensor range, you may be able to creep away. However, sometimes that just not the case. If the torpedo is close inbound, or you have reason to believe your attacker is another sub, then its likely the enemy does have a good fix and that fish is chasing you. Run in the opposite direction. If you're lucky, you can outrun him.

Should I have gone active with my sensors?

Nope. Never ever drive along happily with your active sonars pinging away. The usual comparison is entering a large dark room (in which you know there are bad guys) with a small flashlight. You are advertising your position far further than you can hear the other guy.

Did my sub drop counter measures (are they modelled?)?

They're not modeled ... yet.

[JudgeDredd]

Excellent

Thx Brad

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: mack2

Active Sonar is suicide for a submarine that is in-transit or stalking.

It basically tells everyone with their ear in the water exactly where you are. You might as well surface the boat and start firing flares at the enemy ships whilst playing "Dancing Queen" on a loudspeaker.

lol @ that. k...point taken.

I thought Intermittent would be ok...no?

[Stalintc]

You got out detected my friend, first seen is first killed mostly in sub warfare.

This is just my opinion, but NEVER go intermittant with your sonar, either go active or passive, once you go active it is highly likely you have just given the opposing submarine a good fix on your, enough to put torpedos in the water. And doing so in an intermittant fashion is just irritating the opposing vessel. [;)]

When travelling along your course, stay fully passive, dont travel at high speed when you dont need to, a deep cruise is quite sufficient. Aid your passive sensors by slowing to 5 knots for periods of the journey which will allow your passive towed array the best chance of picking up a contact. Remember the quieter you are the easier it is to hear further and the less chance you have of being counter detected.

Go ACTIVE only when you are extrmely desperate or you know that you have been fully compromised (even then I dont reccomend it fully)

When you get warning of torpedos in the water, note visually what bearing from your submarine those torpedos are on and draw a mental line between your sub and the initial contact this is likely the direction the torp is trvelling. It is possible that the torpedos have not gone active and aquired your submarine yet, you need to get out of their aquisition cone. First thing you should do is turn to get out of the aquisition cone.

Now the best way of getting yourself out of the torpedos range and aquisition cone is to about turn your submarine away from the torpedo and align yourself between 45 degrees and 60 degrees away from the suspected *heading* of the *torpedo* and hit a speed of between 15 to 20 knots, this is increasing the distance that the torp has to travel to get to you and also taking you out of its *field of view* from here you can then monitor the torpedo contact.

You will likely have to make another decision based on the situation between you and the incoming torpedo. You could either:

- Turn back around towards the torpedo but at a 45 degree offset from the *bearing* of the torpedo from your submarine, (preferably in the direction which takes you furthest from the torpedos path)

- Increase your speed and attempt to push the torpedo to its maximum range.

- Whatever funky tactic you can think up (Believe me sometimes a move that sounds stupid can work in one offs if you are desperate)

The above will not guarantee you escape, but will INCREASE your chances of getting away remarkably.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the AI is well within its right to drop more torpedos in the water at the heading you have just adjusted to, complicating your escape solution, so use the above basics to calculate your way out [:)]

Another thing to keep in mind, is if you feel the torp contact is still a way out, dont be afraid to listen with passive sonar at 5 knots to see if you can aquire a better fix on its heading.

Ok I shut up now [;)]

See how you get on I hope that helps a little?!

[JudgeDredd]

Very good advice here.

But one thing that threw me....when looking at a subs sensors (I cannot recall correctly)...but I don't remember seeing a passive button, only Active and Intermittent...which is why I set sensors to Intermittent (for ALL my units!)...is this wrong then? Am I to believe that sensors are, by default, operating on passize?

Also, does this "not switching sensors on" go for most units? Can I presume setting AWACS or it's smaller equivelant EC3 Sentry, ASW Helos to active is ok?

[Stalintc]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Very good advice here.

But one thing that threw me....when looking at a subs sensors (I cannot recall correctly)...but I don't remember seeing a passive button, only Active and Intermittent...which is why I set sensors to Intermittent (for ALL my units!)...is this wrong then? Am I to believe that sensors are, by default, operating on passize?

Also, does this "not switching sensors on" go for most units? Can I presume setting AWACS or it's smaller equivelant EC3 Sentry, ASW Helos to active is ok?

All sensors should be passive by default when you start out, (mostly) I am surpised you only have options for intermittent or active... you should have

- Off (Passive)
- Intermittent
- Active


Ok the dilemma you face in harpoon with sensors is such

You go active, everyone who has passive sensors within range of *hearing* those those emissions will know you are there and what type\model of radar you are using.
From this they can deduce what type of unit is radiating and a rough location and direction.

The longer your radar\sonar is active the more precise the solution your opponent will obtain, gradually narrowing down the area of uncertainty until they have a good enough location and possible heading to launch a BOL attack against you without ever having to go active themselves.

This is the most important thing you can take into consideration when you are planning on using active sensors, this must dictate the way you use them.

A few examples

It is generally acceptable for an AWACS aircraft to be airborne and emitting, but get it away from your launching base first, this is especially important for a carrier group, the worst thing you can do is sit your Hawkeye above your carrier group radiating away, get some distance first and guard it well, any aircraft\unit radiating with impunity is top on the target list for any opponent.

In a situation where you want to sneak a battlegroup which has shorter range weapons than your target, you want to stay as passive a possible, use aircraft to collect data on the enemy location or a submarine even.

If you are going to radiate to try and locate and get a good fix on an enemy battlegroup, make sure it has good point defences and position it on a different course and at a distance from your own group for the whole time you intend to radiate.

Intermittent radiating will provide your opponent with less oppourtunity to get an accurate fix on your location reducing the chance of a BOL launch, it is important to consider how long you want to be exposed when selecting the intermittant active option, you need a balance between being able to detect a target and staying ambigous

In situations where your forces are more powerful than the enemy you can sometimes be the dominant force and radiate more happily than your foe.

Airstrikes should see your strikers nose cold with radars off until the last moment, but your escort fighters positioned nearby should be radiating and attracting the attention when you get into enemy territory and expect to encounter heavy CAP. however consider this, if the enemy air defences are light, and they dont appear to be radiating much you can porbably take advantage of this with the proper intel and get your strikers in there without alerting the enemy till the bombs start dropping.

These are just some examples of the things you need to consider when it comes to your active sensors, on ANY platform, the idea here is to gain the maximum amount of intel without compromising your own force composition\intentions\whereabouts.

I hope this is somewhat helpful to you, its more a mish mash of info rather than something structured, but its the best I can do at the moment [:)] im sure others will chime in with their own opinions

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
But one thing that threw me....when looking at a subs sensors (I cannot recall correctly)...but I don't remember seeing a passive button, only Active and Intermittent...which is why I set sensors to Intermittent (for ALL my units!)...is this wrong then? Am I to believe that sensors are, by default, operating on passize?

You're right, there is no "on/off" switch for a submarine's passive sonar. They are "on" (i.e. in listening mode) by default.

Also, does this "not switching sensors on" go for most units? Can I presume setting AWACS or it's smaller equivelant EC3 Sentry, ASW Helos to active is ok?

Yes, for most units you'll have to actually turn on your sensors. One other exception (besides passive sonar) is ESM (Electronic Surveillance Measures). ESM is a receiver of sorts that will detect and advise you of other unit's emissions (i.e. that the other guy has his radar turned on).

[JudgeDredd]

Great advice here...thx all.

I was loading up a scenario and setting ALL my units to Intermittent or Active!! [X(]

[Stalintc]

Well the best way to learn is to make mistakes and ask advice, makes it harder to do it again [;)]

Hehe, well as long as you are enjoying yourself, thats all that counts!!

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I had a scenario where I had a Los Angeles sub.

I did the following

• set speed to cruise
• set heading south on a zig zag pattern
• set set sensors to intermittent (accepted defaults)

OK, first off, I never run a sub over 10 knots, you might as well just radio the enemy your position at higher speeds, cause its easy for them to find you.

Never ever use active sonar for locating. You basically cut your detection range in half (or greater if you have multiple CZ capability) and broadcast your position to the enemy.

Next thing I know, it tells me there's an unidentified object. I highlight th object and it says "Torpedoes". But it's yellow...so I set my speed to creep and go deep.

I then get another report of another torpedo. So I change course East.

Next thing I know, the sub is hit...twice...and sinks.

An unseen foe. What did I do wrong? Why did I not detect the other sub (the torps "indicated" coming from the south (forward of my heading))? What can I do to avoid the torps? Should I have gone active with my sensors? Should I have increased speed away from the torps? Would I have outrun them? Did my sub drop counter measures (are they modelled?)?

Just a few questions for you Admiral Nimitz peeps out there [:D]

It really depends on the Sub. AS CV-32 said change direction, even depth and try to creep away. I also tend to counter-fire if I'm fairly certain it came from another sub. Now then, if you are playing Soviets and are using an Alpha class sub, dive very deep and run directly away at full speed (its the exception due to its depth and speed capabilities).

[NefariousKoel]

Subs-

* Don't go Active sonar unless you've been fired on and are desperate for some kind of contact in a vengeance shot.
* Speed & Sonar: Keep the speed as low as possible & still be able to get there. Sonar is usually a sub's only means of detecting (and detection). Also, it's Towed Sonar doesn't work after a certain speed or when the sub is turning erratically. I'm not sure what the threshold is in HCE but I try to keep my subs @ 14kts and preferrably less when transiting while searching unless absolutely necessary.
* If you detect a torpedo.. head the opposite direction at max speed & get the hell outta Dodge (if it's a nuke).