AAR - Ralegh

Empires in Arms is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. Empires in Arms is a seven player game of grand strategy set during the Napoleonic period of 1805-1815. The unit scale is corps level with full diplomatic options

Moderator: MOD_EIA

User avatar
Murat
Posts: 803
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:19 pm
Location: South Carolina

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Murat »

ORIGINAL: timothy_stone

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

Limit of 4 sea spaces was an optional rule (sea movement was reduced by one hex to a minimum of four per corp carried over X, I forget the particulars. We used it once then dropped it).

In the board game, you cannot ally with a nation for one year after the end of a war or the breaking of a treaty.
*snip*

you can't ally for 1 year after breaking an alliance, there is no such limit after ending a war.

Yes there is - enforced peace. It is a default of 12 mo for conditional and 18 mo for unconditional although there are peace conditions that allow the victor to extend it.

bresh
Posts: 936
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:10 am

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by bresh »

Im bit puzzled by the new AAR-Ralegh !

What new rules allows the Austrian Insurrection corps out of the restricted zones ???

Regards
Bresh
User avatar
Adraeth
Posts: 349
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: Italy - near Florence

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Adraeth »

As i see the third AAR (fra vs aut) i regret that the AI choosed a bad attack and suffered a disastrous defeat... why to attack in Mountains with John (1-1-1)?
 
Does Charles was in Italy i hope?
 
I think in this case the AI behaved recklessly....[&:]
www.histwar.fr/
---
Periods i like: age of muskets, napoleonics, modern combat.
DerekP
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:56 am

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by DerekP »

Totally agree.

If you're going to post AARs it helps if they show how good the game is not how incompetent the AI is. Attacking at less than 1:1 odds into a mountain pass is not smart from any AI in any game. OK this might just be a "forced" example but it doesn't engender much confidence.

After the debacle of the first AAR with GB defeating France in a few months I'll be holding my CC back until theres some more feedback from others.
User avatar
jamo262
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:38 pm
Location: Perth Australia

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by jamo262 »

Im wondering what froces France historically used to guard it's borders whilst Nappy was away conquoring europe.

I seems GB can just waltz across the channel whenever it likes.

I know he kept Augerau in Brest for a while but what forces weremustered against the Walcheron Island expidition?

Apart from the mosquitoes of course!

Maybe a garrison corps on Lille should have the ability to block use of the straight- but I dont like that idea.

Perhaps France can call up Garrisons in each city if the home land is invaded equal to the number of spires on each province capital.

I have seen one game varient where this is done for every city on the board at the start.

I guess we can see why Nappy kept the spanish campaign going as he did as it tied down the British army.

Imagine running into Russia with a full strength British army only a couple of turns from paris at his back.
timothy_stone
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu May 22, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by timothy_stone »

ORIGINAL: Murat

ORIGINAL: timothy_stone

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

Limit of 4 sea spaces was an optional rule (sea movement was reduced by one hex to a minimum of four per corp carried over X, I forget the particulars. We used it once then dropped it).

In the board game, you cannot ally with a nation for one year after the end of a war or the breaking of a treaty.
*snip*

you can't ally for 1 year after breaking an alliance, there is no such limit after ending a war.

Yes there is - enforced peace. It is a default of 12 mo for conditional and 18 mo for unconditional although there are peace conditions that allow the victor to extend it.


enforced peace is not a barrier to alliance, you are mixing two concepts

and the enforced peace is 18 months regardless of peace type, though the victor can extend it (one way, the victors restrictions don't change but the loser's do) to 24 months (conditional victory pick) or 36 months (u.c. victory pick)

the rules can be read online at http://eia.xnetz.com/rules/eiarules-with-errata.html
timothy_stone
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu May 22, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by timothy_stone »

ORIGINAL: Adraeth Montecuccoli

As i see the third AAR (fra vs aut) i regret that the AI choosed a bad attack and suffered a disastrous defeat... why to attack in Mountains with John (1-1-1)?

Does Charles was in Italy i hope?

I think in this case the AI behaved recklessly....[&:]

Hey, can someone post a link to the 3rd AAR? I can't find it

Edit: never mind, it's linked from teh front page now at:

http://www.matrixgames.com/features/eia ... _page1.asp

and the game A.I. is looking *disastrously* bad, with the austrians attacking a superior force, giving up +1/-1 dice modifiers and attacking a mountain position, all with Napoleon right next to them waiting to reinforce....

a bit disheartening
Killerduck
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:39 pm

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Killerduck »

EiA is (one of) the most complicated board games ever published.

You can attack your opponents money, manpower, political status or victory points (if you are GB). Also, all nations are different in almost every aspect. What is a winning strategy for France, is most likely a suicide for everyone else.
Who is enemy could, and will, change.
Smart people who have played EiA quite a bit make stupid moves. It's a complicated game.

This might seem a bit extreme, but imho, the time this project has been going on is not long enough for the programmers to play this game very well (unless they play a lot! [:)]. What can you expect from the AI?

If you want to play against computer, there are good news. All nations arent equal. You can try a weaker nation for more challenge (can you say Turkey?).

Personally, I will play the game on PBEM and against computer. I know I will enjoy human opponents much more, but sharpening my claws on AI is good practise [:D]
Odysseus
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:25 pm

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Odysseus »

Actually, I'm not too worried about the AI yet (though some Ralegh comments on all of the above would be interesing, just to get his perspective). Really, you have to take the fog of war into account here - what the Austrian player is seeing is his 4 corps against the 2 French ones. He cannot possibly know that they are almost full, meaning that the fight could just as well have been against half that strength, for all Austria knows. Also, he could have calculated with at least attriting the French forces at before that big evil Napolean stack gets closer (and he sure did have the militia to waste), in which case the move was a fairly rational fighting retreat kind of thing - meaning that the player might have been aware that the chances of winning were slim, but that the move was worth it for other reasons. Without knowing what the rest of the board looks like, we can't tell for sure.
 
The rest of that battle is the result of bad drawing of chits and dice rolls, and that can happen to anyone.
 
Anyway, I'm certainly waiting eagerly for any PBEM challenge coming my way! O, am I ever! Happy days are here again!
User avatar
Ralegh
Posts: 1548
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:33 am
Contact:

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Ralegh »

Hey Odysseus - great guess!
 
I wish I was smart enough to explain the right things before people ran away with assumptions. 
 
Much of the Austrian army was way out of position, and they needed a bit of time - I didn't mention it, but they were at war with Turkey when I attacked.  I reckon lots of human players would get John to throw some militia away to get a look at the French and slow their advance. If John had outpicked Davout, then in the next month he would have been defending in the mountains - and I am pretty sure that is what the AI was hoping for. And a few risks are worth taking with trash corps for Austria to stand a chance against France. 
 
 
On the other issues in this thread, part of the strategic interest in EIA is becaue of the different situations different countries are in, and EIANW dows reflect that pretty faithfully (cant re-ally within 12 months of breaking an alliance//changed french/british movement order//britain and france needing lots of PP ...)
HTH
Steve/Ralegh
Naomi
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:22 pm
Location: Osaka

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Naomi »

I am not convinced enough that the AI was playing out this way. Was it just tempted to attack whatever was close enough to it or in its way? (Remember how the AI - in COG - keeps attacking with the same inferior numbers till winnowing to the bare minimum through being captured, as long as your force gets in its way.)

I like your illustration by the way. *(^.^)*
timothy_stone
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu May 22, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by timothy_stone »

ORIGINAL: Ralegh

Hey Odysseus - great guess!

I wish I was smart enough to explain the right things before people ran away with assumptions.

Much of the Austrian army was way out of position, and they needed a bit of time - I didn't mention it, but they were at war with Turkey when I attacked. I reckon lots of human players would get John to throw some militia away to get a look at the French and slow their advance. If John had outpicked Davout, then in the next month he would have been defending in the mountains - and I am pretty sure that is what the AI was hoping for. And a few risks are worth taking with trash corps for Austria to stand a chance against France.


On the other issues in this thread, part of the strategic interest in EIA is becaue of the different situations different countries are in, and EIANW dows reflect that pretty faithfully (cant re-ally within 12 months of breaking an alliance//changed french/british movement order//britain and france needing lots of PP ...)

Hi guys -
that explanation of the AI's choice seems a little bit... optimistic

first off, yes players would want to slow the FR advance - that is NOT done by sacrificing your army

if he really needed to find out what FR had there, a 1-mil corps could have done the same thing at only a -1pp cost. As it is, he's lost 2 pp.s and now faces the entire FR army with only 17 factors remaining, meaning barring disastrous chits&rolls, he will be vaporized. Then there is absolutely nothing between the G. Armee and Vienna.

it's also given FR +3 pp.s for free

and Oh, look - when Napoleon and the whole Armee vaporise what's left of John's stack, that's another +3pps (+6 fr, -4 Au, almost enough to match a conditional surrender)

thinking 'hey if i beat davout i can be defending in the mountains' is again, optimistic.
If you attack superior morale, give them +1/-1 against you *and* the mountain modifier.... you just don't have much chance of winning, so it's not a good idea to base your plan on that. If he really wanted to defend in the mountains, he could have just gone to the Salzburg area (where he retreated to) without giving up the losses and pp.s

the very idea that you need to 'examine' the FR forces is a little thin, seeing as it is the main Davout/Napoleon stack, so you can pretty much assume it's got the heavies...

And it's no good saying 'oh, they were trash corps' - there's *9* cav there, and they will lose all of them. 9cav and 12i is a lot of cash, not counting 36 factors of manpower.

especially with charles off chasing Turks, who's going to keep vienna safe?

I realize it's an incredibly complex game to try to program, but some effort needed to be put in teaching the AI to evaluate odds of victory and also teach it the principles of screening Vienna (and thinking more than just one battle, but what happens to my stack *after* this battle... - do i get overwhelmed, isolated with no forage, is there a better way -- namely picking an important defensive location..)

I'm not saying that these have not been programmed in,
just that what the AI has shown in these reports have been repeated blunders for the AI.

(e.g. this iffy attack, the FR surrender to a tiny GB corps in paris, the turks abandoning Egypt)

Are you showing us only your highlights where you have crushed the AI?

Perhaps if you show us some AAR's where the AI's skills are highlighted instead of the Beta Testers, Matrix would garner more sales.

User avatar
Adraeth
Posts: 349
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: Italy - near Florence

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Adraeth »

ORIGINAL: Ralegh

Hey Odysseus - great guess!

I wish I was smart enough to explain the right things before people ran away with assumptions. 

Much of the Austrian army was way out of position, and they needed a bit of time - I didn't mention it, but they were at war with Turkey when I attacked.  I reckon lots of human players would get John to throw some militia away to get a look at the French and slow their advance. If John had outpicked Davout, then in the next month he would have been defending in the mountains - and I am pretty sure that is what the AI was hoping for. And a few risks are worth taking with trash corps for Austria to stand a chance against France. 


On the other issues in this thread, part of the strategic interest in EIA is becaue of the different situations different countries are in, and EIANW dows reflect that pretty faithfully (cant re-ally within 12 months of breaking an alliance//changed french/british movement order//britain and france needing lots of PP ...)

Thanks Ralegh now i understand, and i see forward to play this game with fun [:D]
www.histwar.fr/
---
Periods i like: age of muskets, napoleonics, modern combat.
User avatar
Erik Rutins
Posts: 39650
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA
Contact:

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Erik Rutins »

Though no AI is a substitute for a good human player, it's worth keeping in mind that Ralegh is not only a veteran tester, he's also an excellent player. Back when he was involved in COG testing, he was regularly annihilating the AI on settings much higher than the rest of us could survive at, hence his "Ralegh guides" to teach the rest of the public what he'd learned.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


Image

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.
User avatar
sol_invictus
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Kentucky

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by sol_invictus »

Well I think we all have experienced some "brilliant" AI over the years, so did anyone really think that the AI for this very complicated game would be an actual challenge? I have never played the boardgame but have a copy, so I am sure I will appreciate the AI as a learning tool, but this game will really demand a group of players to shine imo.
"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero
User avatar
JavaJoe
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:43 pm
Contact:

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by JavaJoe »

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

Well I think we all have experienced some "brilliant" AI over the years, so did anyone really think that the AI for this very complicated game would be an actual challenge? I have never played the boardgame but have a copy, so I am sure I will appreciate the AI as a learning tool, but this game will really demand a group of players to shine imo.

Without a doubt Arinvald. No AI can compare to a cut throat human. This game does give the option to use the AI to cover for the player that drops out or is on vacation or just doesn't care enough to continue. That makes it worthy.

Vice President Jersey Association Of Gamers
JerseyGamers.com
User avatar
Monadman
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: New Hampshire

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Monadman »

The EiANW AI has climbed from the depths of pitiful (a few months ago) to the status of tutorial at its current “hard” level but it is morphing as Marshall continually adds new algorithms. Not surprising to most, but the strength of this game is with human v. human play.

Richard
User avatar
Marshall Ellis
Posts: 5630
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 3:00 pm
Location: Dallas

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Marshall Ellis »

I must support and reemphasize what Richard is saying. I don't think the AI will ever be able to replace the human ability to betray / deceive and let's face it - that's the beauty of this game. At the end of the day for the AI, it's a mathematical problem (i.e. Paris is more valuable than Brest so goto Paris).
 
I will constantly try to better the chit selections, battle locations, force building, etc. BUT these things only happen after the deceit / betrayal phase.
 
 
 
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


Odysseus
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:25 pm

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by Odysseus »

ORIGINAL: timothy_stone
the very idea that you need to 'examine' the FR forces is a little thin, seeing as it is the main Davout/Napoleon stack, so you can pretty much assume it's got the heavies...

Yes, you can...and probably any other fairly experienced human player can. But how can you expect that from a computer? No, bear in mind that I have absolutely no experience coding AIs, but that notwithstanding, it seems a bit overly optimistic to assume that a computer could actually make accurate estimates - based only on where leaders are placed and the corps compostion of the stacks.

My example was provided to give insight into how a player could think and rationalize that move, mostly to show that the AI might, in at least some respects, mimic player behaviour pretty well, even if it isn't the most competent player behaviour.

Going up 4 Au corps against 2 French, hoping that Nap won't be able to reinforce, for the *only* reasonable chance to kill off some French troops before the 800 lbs gorilla stands outside Vienna and you *definitely* have no chance of even putting dirt on their uniforms, seems not unreasonable to me...only slightly desperate, which is a far from unusual situation to be in in this game [:D].

That said, I can't say that I've seen enough of the AI to draw any conclusions yet - we haven't really seen any consistencies in its moves, have we? In Egypt it withdrew. In Austria it attacked, meaning that it doesn't just always attack whatever happens to be within reach. If anything, the lack of consistency seems promising - it's the predicable AI's I find boring.

Personally, as long as this AI is better than HoI2, I'm going to be happy...
User avatar
JavaJoe
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:43 pm
Contact:

RE: AAR - Ralegh

Post by JavaJoe »

ORIGINAL: Odysseus

ORIGINAL: timothy_stone
the very idea that you need to 'examine' the FR forces is a little thin, seeing as it is the main Davout/Napoleon stack, so you can pretty much assume it's got the heavies...

Yes, you can...and probably any other fairly experienced human player can. But how can you expect that from a computer? No, bear in mind that I have absolutely no experience coding AIs, but that notwithstanding, it seems a bit overly optimistic to assume that a computer could actually make accurate estimates - based only on where leaders are placed and the corps compostion of the stacks.

My example was provided to give insight into how a player could think and rationalize that move, mostly to show that the AI might, in at least some respects, mimic player behaviour pretty well, even if it isn't the most competent player behaviour.

Going up 4 Au corps against 2 French, hoping that Nap won't be able to reinforce, for the *only* reasonable chance to kill off some French troops before the 800 lbs gorilla stands outside Vienna and you *definitely* have no chance of even putting dirt on their uniforms, seems not unreasonable to me...only slightly desperate, which is a far from unusual situation to be in in this game [:D].

That said, I can't say that I've seen enough of the AI to draw any conclusions yet - we haven't really seen any consistencies in its moves, have we? In Egypt it withdrew. In Austria it attacked, meaning that it doesn't just always attack whatever happens to be within reach. If anything, the lack of consistency seems promising - it's the predicable AI's I find boring.

Personally, as long as this AI is better than HoI2, I'm going to be happy...

An experienced EiA player can beat the AI. Although I've played for months now and I've never been beaten as France. (OK onetime I rebooted the game because no measly AI will beat me as an experienced EiA player and I need to keep that facade intact[;)] ok, ok maybe more than once but I was testing...honest!)
A player using this as a vehicle to play against other players with the game EiA as the paint job, will find that it ain't a bad ride. It gives you a chance to keep the flow moving should a player drop, it follows the rules of an extremely complicated game whose rules are not the best written thing around....(Empires in Arguements comes to mind) Overall you'll find that it is worth the investment. Unless of course if you play against me then you'll hate it....


Glove slapped across the collective faces of EiANW opponents...[:D]
Vice President Jersey Association Of Gamers
JerseyGamers.com
Post Reply

Return to “Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815”