Historical scenarios.

Advanced Tactics is a versatile turn-based strategy system that gives gamers the chance to wage almost any battle in any time period. The initial release focuses on World War II and includes a number of historical scenarios as well as a full editor! This forum supports both the original Advanced Tactics and the new and improved Advanced Tactics: Gold Edition.

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HansBolter
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: allsop

Hans,

The lack of historical unit sizes/designations will drive you batty!!!

Having said this, it is almost too bad the unit size/name issues were not addressed earlier for the grognards because the way the game plays it really quite fun.


As for the lack of visible detail potentailly driving me batty, that is exactly the impression I have garnered.

As for the "almost too bad" part I couldn't agree more. Although I am an agnostic, they say God is in the details. If only some one had stopped to consider "what additional minor step do we need to take to ensure a broad appeal" the implementation would have been so much better. After all, all they had to do was arrange a mechanism that would display a unit ID and a unit size on their "flexible" counters and they would have had every last one of us grogs hook, line and sinker. It's just a shame no one thought of it.
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Smirfy
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by Smirfy »

Well they got everything else about right[:D] Sure I'm sorry that they did not designate or let you scale designations to the scenarios. But you can name the parent units So in my 45 game Budapest is defended by IX SS and III SS is trying to relieve whilst unfortunately the sub units are only modelled generically the Game plays operationally better than any wargame in its class
serg3d1
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by serg3d1 »

There is no much sense in putting the name of the unit on the board, because ther could be several units stacked in one hex. The name of the current unit is visible in the bottom bar. And each unit could be renamed any way you want. I have Mech Corps, Air Armies, Assault Engineer Brigades, Strike Armies and Guard Corps [:)]
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HansBolter
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: serg3d1

There is no much sense in putting the name of the unit on the board, because ther could be several units stacked in one hex.

Board gamers have dealt with that phenomenon from the days of the first game that allowed stacking. Only being able to identify the top unit in a stack does inhibit the ability to identify units in the big picture, but only to a small degree as it is inherently easier to remember what other units you stacked under the 25th SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment than it is to remember what you stacked under that unidentified generic panzer grenadier counter in the middle of the battlefield. So, I beg to differ with your position in taking the position that yes it does make perfect sense.
Hans

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BlackSunshine
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by BlackSunshine »

Hans,

You really are selling yourself quite short. One of the best operational level games I have played are the Panzer Campaigns games by HPS. They do not have the units names on the counter, but they have the most accurate OOB and maps for battles I have seen. At 1km per hex and most scenarios are at batallion level, the game is a grognards dream.

AT, while not as detailed, is easily moddable and simulates operational level combat very well. Im pleasantly surprised at the level of detail inside the game itself, and it does a great job of replicating most strategic situations in any conflict.

I won't try to beat you over the head with how good the game is, but for being being stringent on having unit names on counters, you are missing out on a lot of good wargames.

Just my $.02
rickier65
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: allsop

Hans,

The lack of historical unit sizes/designations will drive you batty!!!

Having said this, it is almost too bad the unit size/name issues were not addressed earlier for the grognards because the way the game plays it really quite fun.


As for the lack of visible detail potentailly driving me batty, that is exactly the impression I have garnered.

As for the "almost too bad" part I couldn't agree more. Although I am an agnostic, they say God is in the details. If only some one had stopped to consider "what additional minor step do we need to take to ensure a broad appeal" the implementation would have been so much better. After all, all they had to do was arrange a mechanism that would display a unit ID and a unit size on their "flexible" counters and they would have had every last one of us grogs hook, line and sinker. It's just a shame no one thought of it.


Hans,

TOAW offered the ability to create some of the most accurate and detailed OOBs I've seen, and yet, no facility for showing names on map-board. nother I ejoyed were the Panzer Campaigns. In fact one of the few relatively recent games where unit designations appeared on the counters on the map were the last two offerings from Schwerpunkt, RussaGerman War (unfortuneatey, I've lost my game CD for that one).

In any event, you could in fact design an install counters that had size designations on them, but once they were put under human control, they might not look like they started very long.

In any event, I'd like having unit designatins on the units, but this game has already given me quite a lot of fun. I think anyone who enjoys operational/strategic games will want to have this in their collection. BUT, I think this game has staying power, and will be around for awhile, so (don't kick me Erik) sit back, watch what happens as modders actually get some time to tinker, and wait until you see some results that look like they might please you.

But I'd keep watching the discusion on this game if I were you, I think it's going to a long term winner.

Rick
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Redmarkus5
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by Redmarkus5 »

Hi. I have just posted my first attempt at a historical scenario (War in the East 2) at the AT scenario bank; Divisional level, 7 days per turn, with a 95% historical setup (including the command structure for both sides, but excluding the Korps level as it added too many layers). I've even used all the historical German unit names and included the names of key commanders. IT NOW NEEDS THE COMMUNITY TO HELP WITH EDITS AND IMPROVEMENTS - ESPECIALLY THE EVENTS ENGINE, AS I'M USELESS AT THAT.

Of course, the AI will create new units with non-historical names over time, but that's only a minor annoyance. I've played it through to Sept 1941 as both sides against the AI and the front line was almost exactly as it was historically.
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Redmarkus5
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by Redmarkus5 »

Hans - I meant to add that I'm a gamer since the 1970s (AH and all that, TOAW, etc. etc.). I HATE 'Blitzkreig' and all RTS games of that type. However, after a couple of hours initially feeling ripped off by the AT developers I quickly began to recognise a truly great game engine with huge potential. The stock scenarios are not up to grognard standards, but I am convinced this game will prosper because you can edit so many facets. I highly recommend it. The Ardennes scenario and N Africa really got me interested, so I suggest starting there.
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Vic
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by Vic »

@redmarkus4,
 
please open a thread in the editing forum so people can give feedback there.
 
kind regards,
Vic
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Der Oberst
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by Der Oberst »

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
However, after a couple of hours initially feeling ripped off by the AT developers I quickly began to recognise a truly great game engine with huge potential. The stock scenarios are not up to grognard standards, but I am convinced this game will prosper because you can edit so many facets.

This is where I come down on this game as well. I think it has "potential". I like the interface and the game engine, but if you're looking for an historically accurate game out of the box this will disappoint you. The most blatant evidence being the North African scenario where 21st Pz and 5th Leichte fight on the same map - they really couldn't you see as 5th Leichte became 21st Pz in October 1941. I wouldn't say this factoid would necessarily be for the "ultra-grognard" either...[;)]

That said, the game is very editable (though the scenario building interface is not all that intuitive), and with a proper group of scenario designers this game shows a great deal of promise.

So, bottom line, if you want an historically accurate game out of the box, and are unwilling to learn the editor and build scenarios (or buy-enjoy the game- then wait for scenarios...) I would leave this title alone.

For the record, I bought the game, am learning the game engine, and will either build scenarios or wait for those who will.
Regards,

Der Oberst
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PDiFolco
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by PDiFolco »

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Hi. I have just posted my first attempt at a historical scenario (War in the East 2) at the AT scenario bank; Divisional level, 7 days per turn, with a 95% historical setup (including the command structure for both sides, but excluding the Korps level as it added too many layers). I've even used all the historical German unit names and included the names of key commanders. IT NOW NEEDS THE COMMUNITY TO HELP WITH EDITS AND IMPROVEMENTS - ESPECIALLY THE EVENTS ENGINE, AS I'M USELESS AT THAT.

Of course, the AI will create new units with non-historical names over time, but that's only a minor annoyance. I've played it through to Sept 1941 as both sides against the AI and the front line was almost exactly as it was historically.

Ok I volunteer [;)], what do you need ?
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tweber
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by tweber »

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Hi. I have just posted my first attempt at a historical scenario (War in the East 2) at the AT scenario bank; Divisional level, 7 days per turn, with a 95% historical setup (including the command structure for both sides, but excluding the Korps level as it added too many layers). I've even used all the historical German unit names and included the names of key commanders. IT NOW NEEDS THE COMMUNITY TO HELP WITH EDITS AND IMPROVEMENTS - ESPECIALLY THE EVENTS ENGINE, AS I'M USELESS AT THAT.

Of course, the AI will create new units with non-historical names over time, but that's only a minor annoyance. I've played it through to Sept 1941 as both sides against the AI and the front line was almost exactly as it was historically.


Putting together a divisional level scenario that covers the entire Russian front for the entire war is quite an ambitious way to jump into the editor. My hat's off to you. I had a quick look and had some comments and thoughts:

- If you more than double the number of units and triple the number of turns in a year. You may consider either (a) making the map larger or (b) making the units move less per turn. With the current map, it is 24 hexes from jump off to Moscow, the Germans can set a leisurely pace of about 1 hex per turn and get there before the winter. An easy way to scale would be to add x and y hexes to the map and then re-draw. You would have to get a good historic source.

- I would look at the combination of the number of HQ's, HQ range, and the size of the map. With current settings, HQ's give full support to units 5 hexes away and then things taper off from there. The SU is a bit of a funnel. Once you get past the marshes, you can get really good coverage with 6 HQ. Any more than this and you are wasting pp that could be used for research. A couple of potential solutions would be to: (1) make a bigger map; (2) reduce the HQ range; (3) reduce to HQ cost so they cannot be effectively harvested.

- I think the starting position greatly favors the Germans. Both sides were increased, though though most of the Soviet increase is likely to be lost quickly. A significant force is SW of AG South and should always be cut off on the first turn by a decent German player. By turn 3, I think the Germans will be in much stronger relative shape that the previous version.

- Minor point - you over mechanize the motor divisions. They have 5 trucks and 5 half tracks. A smart player will use this excess transport to also mechanize the regular troops.

- If you make significant changes to the scenario, production and how it changes over time, becomes important. I did not dig into this. However, your initial oob with determine if the first 6 months of the war runs well. Your production levels will determine how well the rest of the war runs. Production is tricky because you have to set the amount and determine the location. I also noticed you added a lot of low value production centers. You may want this but it does add more complexity to the player (instead of 4 sheets of a lot of towns, you might add larger production centers on the map edge).


In the end, if you want to do a divisional level scenario, I would:

- Start with a new map
- Start with a clean set of events
- Develop your production plan for each side
- Populate your oob.

Happy to help. Send me a note if interested.
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Bombur
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by Bombur »

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Hi. I have just posted my first attempt at a historical scenario (War in the East 2) at the AT scenario bank; Divisional level, 7 days per turn, with a 95% historical setup (including the command structure for both sides, but excluding the Korps level as it added too many layers). I've even used all the historical German unit names and included the names of key commanders. IT NOW NEEDS THE COMMUNITY TO HELP WITH EDITS AND IMPROVEMENTS - ESPECIALLY THE EVENTS ENGINE, AS I'M USELESS AT THAT.

Of course, the AI will create new units with non-historical names over time, but that's only a minor annoyance. I've played it through to Sept 1941 as both sides against the AI and the front line was almost exactly as it was historically.


-Do you consider the idea of reworking the SF types and change their statistics in order to build realistic equipment (T-34´s, Me-109´s and so on)?
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Vic
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by Vic »

@redmarkus,
 
see my remarks in other thread about doing a divisional level more historical scenario.
 
i dont want to bash your enthousiasm but having units stacked 3 deep on the whole frontline is not something that is very usefull in a gameplay sense.
 
also keeping up with giving each division mgs, mortars, at-guns, inf-guns, smg, rifle , artillery, etc.. is just to much. you'll have to do some abstraction to make this work.
 
sorry for the criticism, but just my 2 cents.
 
kind regards,
vic
 
 
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Redmarkus5
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by Redmarkus5 »

Hi - great. There's a new thread in the Scenarios forum where we can discuss. However, if you download the scenario (Version 2) and try it as the Soviets first, that's a start!
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Redmarkus5
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by Redmarkus5 »

Hmmm... maybe i was too ambitious but I wanted a scenario that gives the satisfaction of an FiTE or Europa game. Anyway, I've enjoyed testing it and I hope someone else will be inspired to make a proper version of this. I may not have all the skills/time needed to do this 100% right.
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SMK-at-work
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by SMK-at-work »

REd that's a great ambition...but I dont' think AT in its current format will let you do it....it's just too abstracted.
 
AT with a bit more "solidity" would be good tho - eg the suggestion I and others have made to defein units and then have them "locked" would be a minimum change IMO.
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PDiFolco
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by PDiFolco »

I beg to differ SMK, I don't see why AT won"t be able to depict properly East Front. "Locked" units would  help recreate historical setups- fine, they are easily doable if you use an Action card driven production system instead of the standard one.
You can also add "resources", manpower and whatever you wish to enhance the production model if you use cards. Sure this would need many event/card scripts and AI scripts to have the AI play the cards, but it's doable right now.
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SMK-at-work
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by SMK-at-work »

One thing about this game for the ultra grognard is the infinite flexibility of unit "organisations" - yuo can freely transfer subunits between "units" at almsot any time (there are limimts on capacity) - eg yuo ight start the game with each panzer division consisting of 2 medium tanks, 1 infantry, etc., but there's nothign stopping you from putting 20 flak into it, or even aircraft or ships (but it would have to be at an airfield or port...)
 
the concenpt of "historical OOB's" is hterefore..um...highly flexible!! :)  A game designer needs to make some fundamental decisions about what scale is going to apply to his game, and then stick to it.  But, as above, that only governs starting positions and strengths....after that it's afree-for-all.
 
that said it does still give a good game - I'm playing Russia '42 at the moment, and it's a good game..not great, but good.  I've found random scenarios quiet good for forcing you to play various options you might not bother with otherwise, but they pale after a while.
 
Now if they could just have an option for making "fixed" unit organisations that can't be changed it would take a great leap towards grogly-ness![:D]
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seille
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RE: Historical scenarios.

Post by seille »

Mhh, i think the fixed unit organisations sounds like a nice idea.
It would allow players only to fill up these units up to their original strength.
 
And you could limit the player on creating new units.
 
BUT: What will happen when a initial unit is destroyed completely ?
 
Player must have a chance then to rebuild that unit in the original strength.
New units could appear at historical times.
 
For the real Grognards this may be great, but i like to be flexible.
But it´s worth to think about such a feature, Vic :)
 
At least a option in the editor that doesn´t allow to exceed the initial strength of a unit.
No strength is wrong, i mean the initial composition of the unit.
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