2000 Lb bombs on TBM

[m10bob]

While another thread is discussing the bombs on the Ki 48, I offer this pic of an American TBM being loaded.

[el cid again]

Note it is centerline. This is where such a heavy bomb should be on a light aircraft. Anything else causes problems with unbalanced drag - and requies very strong structural members. It probably is easier to deliver properly as well.

I think WITP will give you this weapon - rarely - automatically. And there are a few bombers that use larger bombs - even 4000 pound bombs - in certain units.

[JeffroK]

Great pic m10bob, did all photographers carry chalk so suitably insolent messages could be sent to the enemy (Would have made more sense to write on those early war torpedos, they didnt blow into a million pieces!)
 
As the Avenger had a max load in the region of 2,000lb, I would consider it odd to fit the 2,000lb bomb anywhere else.
 
4,000lb bombs!, there are a few bombers which carried a 22,000lb bomb!!

[el cid again]

BRITISH bombers. There was also a 16,000 pound bomb.

But our (WITP devices) biggest is a 4000 pounder - also carried by British bombers in the main.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

BRITISH bombers. There was also a 16,000 pound bomb.

But our (WITP devices) biggest is a 4000 pounder - also carried by British bombers in the main.

Sorry, I forgot that the British dont count...

Was there an 8 ton bomb (MOAB doesnt count), there was definatly a 12,000lb Tallboy.

Any mod that includes the RAF Tiger Force arrival in late 45 should include both Tallboy & Grand Slam as carried by 9 & 617 Sqns

PS A fully loaded TBM Avenger weighed in at about 17,000lb, A Mosquito at around 18000lb

[m10bob]

Here ya' go!

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/s,tallboy.html

[JeffroK]

There is a great book out about Barnes Wallis and his 4 bombs, UPKEEP(Dambusters), TALLBOY (6 ton) GRAND SLAM(10 ton) and the bouncing bomb for Mosquitoes,  of course I cant remember the blinkin name of the book[:@]
 
in addition he designed the Wellesley & Wellington and was part of the TSR2 team

[el cid again]

The super bombs were not used in PTO. Nor would they be useful in our game system. In RHS we use a system where more smaller bombs will have more value. While a super heavy would matter if you bombed a heavily armored battleship - going for a much smaller number would not work as well as a larger number of medium sized weapons - more or less confirming operational decisions IRL - but not for the same reasons.

Tiger Force is pretty much mythical. That is, it was never going to happen IRL. It was a bad idea - see the remarks of the official mathmetician assigned to Bomber Command (Freeman Dyson in Weapons and Hope). But more significantly it was too late in concept. The war was going to be over before it could be in area (see USSBS - which even those who think is flawed say "came to the right conclusions - even if for the wrong reasons": those conclusions is that the war will be over by November - even sans atom bombs or invasions). Since RHS is recommended to end by 1 Nov - and you get NOTHING after that on either side - and since it is forced to end by 1 Jan 46 - we have no possibility of including Tiger Force. Mods with it probably never get to use it - Japan collapses as an opponent late in 1944 in solitare play.

But a bomber fan boy would probably love a 1946 campaign - if human managed Japan were in charge of the other side (so there is something to fight with). I am with Dyson: we burned out 5/6 of the urban areas of Japan - and would have achieved 100% by the end of October. To what end a major bombing campaign in 1946??

[JeffroK]

Tiger Force was being prepared, regardless of its arrival date or likely effect (Look was the Brits did with Bomber Command for 6 years).
 
Likely targets for the earthquake bombs were bridges and tunnels.
 
Strangely, RHS isnt the only mod, so any of the other modders would come to their own conclusion about end dates and weapons involved.

[el cid again]

RHS is only a mod - not the game. But until WITP II comes along, all of us have severe slot limits. If anyone puts in Tiger Force - as CHS did for example - they won't have enough slots to do all the units during the war before 1946 - or they will be forced to use larger units (and at the moment that makes air combat not work - although that may soon change). We cut out 1946 because (a) the war won't last that long; (b) the game won't last that long; (c) we needed slots. Modding is an art of compromise - and if one is unwilling to make such choices - one cannot do very well. I regret that this sometimes is an emotional issue: big bombers are pretty and have fans just like battleships do - and my father flew them - so I didn't grow up in an anti-bomber environment.

Hitting bridges and tunnels would require you can see the target. Bombing over Japan was ineffective because we could not see the targets. That is why the switch to firebombing tactics. Japan is socked in naturally 5/6 of the time. And high altitude bombing never worked out (pre guided bombs) due to winds we didn't understand in those days - although by 1944 we figured out the theory wasn't working.

[JeffroK]

OK, your mod doesnt have them.
 
Others makes their own choice.

[el cid again]

Consider the following:

There are no slots - in any mod - for even one such bomb. Several different sizes are either impossible - or must come at the expense of removing some much more useful bomb.

There is no code provision to make such a bomb useful.

You cannot attack a bridge or a tunnel in ANY form of WITP - well except for RHS. We offer the ONLY case where infrastructure may be attacked - under player control - period. And that is so hard it is only offered at one point - at the expense of a whole new pwhex file - and learning how to use it.

We COULD offer the cutting of Kyushu from Honshu by the same way - it has the "first undersea RR tunnel in the world" - but the ends could be attacked. I assure you - no other mod will even think about it - it is too complex an undertaking.

But your bombs will REDUCE the chance of success! Yep - in spite of being about 500% too effective (code does not sock in Japan as it should ) there is NO advantage to a big bomb over an equal weight of small bombs the way the code is designed - for destroying infrastructure in cities - and in RHS the smaller bombs will do far more damage.

This is the Holy Grail: Persue it if you wish, but you won't find it. It does not make technical sense in game code terms, even more than it would not have made sense IRL in Japan.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Consider the following:

There are no slots - in any mod - for even one such bomb.

That's not entirely correct. However, you are correct when you say that Tallboy and Grand Slam are not usable in their intended roles in WitP. The individual infrastructure elements are not present, and the map scale is too big.

As for Tiger Force, it was definitely a reality in real life planning. Putting it together, however, was probably more a political than a military decision, for the sake of giving Britain a role in the final destruction of Japan.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Consider the following:

There are no slots - in any mod - for even one such bomb. Several different sizes are either impossible - or must come at the expense of removing some much more useful bomb.

There is no code provision to make such a bomb useful.

You cannot attack a bridge or a tunnel in ANY form of WITP - well except for RHS. We offer the ONLY case where infrastructure may be attacked - under player control - period. And that is so hard it is only offered at one point - at the expense of a whole new pwhex file - and learning how to use it.

We COULD offer the cutting of Kyushu from Honshu by the same way - it has the "first undersea RR tunnel in the world" - but the ends could be attacked. I assure you - no other mod will even think about it - it is too complex an undertaking.

But your bombs will REDUCE the chance of success! Yep - in spite of being about 500% too effective (code does not sock in Japan as it should ) there is NO advantage to a big bomb over an equal weight of small bombs the way the code is designed - for destroying infrastructure in cities - and in RHS the smaller bombs will do far more damage.

This is the Holy Grail: Persue it if you wish, but you won't find it. It does not make technical sense in game code terms, even more than it would not have made sense IRL in Japan.

Sid,

As usual you are so blinded by your one-eyed approach you think others have no idea of how to mod this game, from this I guess the success of RHS is soley due to the others in the team.

In my mod, I see little use for the Soviet Union, they only appear late in the game and use up substantial numbers of slots for little use. In your words "Since RHS is recommended to end by 1 Nov " they may have 2-3 mths at best. After working out what aircraft/weapons are need by the Chinese I have opened a swathe of slots. Currently I have not had any units mysteriously upgrade to a Gds Tank Army, though this may happen in late game time.

I have a lot more Brigades than other mods, I see a lot of the early-mid game suffering from not being able to have the Allied Divs split down to Bdes.

No, I cant bomb Bridges & Tunnels, but see the bombing of locations and incurring fatigue/disruption/losses as creating a similar interdiction, plus the odd ship in port may not be impressed by being hit by these bombs, maybe Yamato/Mushashi can be sunk by bombs.

RAF Bomber Command had a lot of experience with bombing in 10/10th cover, they and the US 8th AF had great experience in Radar bombing.

Holy Grail, huh...

I am just interested in making this game interesting, through proposing alternatives to your ill considered approach, the japanese can have bf109 & all sorts of wonder weapons with complete disregard to their actual capabilities but comments about adding to the Allies are seen to be trash.

[&o][&o][&o]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Sid,

As usual you are so blinded by your one-eyed approach you think others have no idea of how to mod this game, from this I guess the success of RHS is soley due to the others in the team.


[&o][&o][&o]

I just took an eye test - and have 20/40 vision - better at age 61 than at age 18 - so I can fly or drive without correction. Presumably this is a metaphor: but for what? There really are no slots for devices for aircraft: we need more than we have for bombs the code would use. There really are no slots for air units either - sans gutting something vital - like China or Russia (and - what - all the Japanese associated with them?).

But - IF there were slots - the code won't use your bombs. For anything at all. Unless you think ships are not taken out effectively enough by 1000, 2000 and 4000 pound bombs (also 800 kg bombs).

Why argue about this: we do not have the option of putting in infrastructures the code might theoretically use such bombs for. The structure of WITP is such Matrix won't do that either - it needs a different code foundation with provision for lots more things.

[el cid again]

[quote]ORIGINAL: JeffK


[quote]ORIGINAL: el cid again


In my mod, I see little use for the Soviet Union, they only appear late in the game and use up substantial numbers of slots for little use. In your words "Since RHS is recommended to end by 1 Nov " they may have 2-3 mths at best. After working out what aircraft/weapons are need by the Chinese I have opened a swathe of slots. Currently I have not had any units mysteriously upgrade to a Gds Tank Army, though this may happen in late game time.

I have a lot more Brigades than other mods, I see a lot of the early-mid game suffering from not being able to have the Allied Divs split down to Bdes.

No, I cant bomb Bridges & Tunnels, but see the bombing of locations and incurring fatigue/disruption/losses as creating a similar interdiction, plus the odd ship in port may not be impressed by being hit by these bombs, maybe Yamato/Mushashi can be sunk by bombs.


[quote]


Tiger Force would, theoretically, be a 1946 phenomena. You cannot escape what hard code does in July, 1945: it won't let you have units in the Soviet Slots - whatever you put in them - air or land. Talk about ill considered, dysfunctional approaches to modding...

The game does permit Allied divisions to split into brigade sized packages. It also permits brigades to split into two combat teams. Did you miss those features?

If you wanted to put in Tiger Force, you would have to take out many air units, or you would have to form them up into very large formations - which then don't operate well in a squadron based system with (right now) a 50 per side limit to the air combat module. If you take out other units - for years of time no less - you can not simulate the earlier years of the game.

IF you want a 1946 simulation - or a 1945/1946 simulation - it would probably be best done with a scenario devoted to that period. If you wanted not to consider China or Russia - you could do the game with intelligent modules on a smaller map as well. But since the bombers came out of China - or over China - and since the heart of Japanese industry is Korea and Manchukuo - I am not sure limited maps will work for this. Further - how in 1945 can we ignore the USSR?

WWII in the Pacific was about China. No China = no war. Further, China is the problem Japan either cannot solve - or can solve only with the greatest difficulty. [Taking out Russia makes dealing with China far more practical. IJA does not have to worry - to keep planes or troops there - or at least it does not have to worry about sending reinforcements to back them up.] WITP makes no strategic sense whatever without China and Russia. I may be a naval thinker - and those may be essentially non-naval operational areas - but really: just because WWII seems to Americans to be a naval war (because for us it was) does not mean it was for Japan. The Pacific is a vast desert - in economic terms - and the war is really about autarky: how can the economy function without the resources from China, Korea, Manchukuo - and potentially from Russia? Are you going to give Japan free resources - beyond the reach of your bombers? Or are you going to deny them to Japan - the resources most efficient to move because they are close and can go much of the way by rail? Or just take economics out of the game - robbing strategic bombers of the major impact they have now?

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK


I am just interested in making this game interesting, through proposing alternatives to your ill considered approach, the japanese can have bf109 & all sorts of wonder weapons with complete disregard to their actual capabilities but comments about adding to the Allies are seen to be trash.

[&o][&o][&o]

You seem to be confused here. Also you are breaking the rules of the board by using the term "ill considered" - it is insulting and also an actual lie: no one and no group can be said to have more seriously considered the implementation of any mod. My approach is one of a simulator - which I am - not a fanboy or "it would be fun" so ignore reality approach.

You also seem to misunderstand the role - or the capabilities of the Bf-109. It is NOT a wonder weapon. It is NOT as good as the Japanese plane using the same engine (Ki-61). Neither is as good as the Japanese Ki-44. The real life Japanese imported the Bf-109E and tested it. They licenced produced the engine and bought a licence to produce the aircraft - and paid a senior Messerschmitt engineer to live in Japan to implement production. Production was REJECTED because this was not a wonder weapon. We do NOT have it in RHS either - in CVO or BBO families - which strictly follow historical production choices. It is ONLY present in EOS - which has a different rationale - assuming better choices made by a process modeled on an actual Japanese planning group. And the rationale adopted only sees the Bf as a temporary stopgap - pending the availability of better Japanese designs. Now you may or may not like that rationale. No one requies you play EOS family scenarios of RHS. The theory is - look at the scenarios - and pick what you DO like - not what you don't. But it is perfectly legitimate that - at the end - we implement a Japan Enhansed Scenario - as was proposed years ago. Nor does it make sense to contrast the Bf with Tiger Force. One is start of war, the other end of war. Nothing put in even in 1945 will be played in 99% of all games. Focus on early possibilities is far more useful to any whole war mod than focus on events which for lots of reasons will not be able to happen at all the vast majority of the time. Your criticisms only show you lack of ability to balance priorities - and are not constructive suggestions in a useful sense at all.

For the record - I did consider Tiger Force - which was IN CHS when I began to change it. I don't like taking out things - and I would love for some of the planes involved to be in the theoretical pot. Give me a bigger design to work with - we can review it again. I was not, and am not, opposed to thinking about even a 1946 option. I cut back the date because we need slots for many missing units. Not least of those are Soviet and Chinese units - which I added in numbers - because they DO matter. Disagree if you wish: it does not make me wrong.

[el cid again]

FYI: According to the WITP Manual, bombs are more or less all created equal. That is, in terms of the way they damage things, it does not matter if you use 100 x 100 pound bombs, 20 x 500 pound bombs, 10 x 1000 pound bombs, 5 x 2000 pound bombs, or 1 x 10000 pound bomb: you will get the same effect.

Exception: if attacking an armored ship, a bigger bomb has greater penetration. The meaning of that is not exactly what it seems to be - die rolls determine what it really penetrates - but its chance of getting inside to do vital damage is greater. This has no bearing on land targets - unless perhaps it hits a tank - which it is hard to imagine any AP bomb is not good enough.

RHS uses a modified system. We mess with the values for anti-soft, anti-armor and penetration. We use principles of physics to make smaller bombs MORE effective - because they are - vs soft targets. We reduce the effect of AP bombs (and shells too) - because more of the weight it casing and less is explosives. We do this on a power function - because that is how it works - and that is why smaller = better for most target situations. Or part of why: for any given load you also get more chances to hit with more bombs. Thus - if a 100 pound bomb has a anti-soft value = 10; and if a 10 pound bomb has an anti-soft value = 3; then 10 x 3 = 30 while 1 x 10 = 10 - the anti soft value of ten smaller bombs is three times the anti-soft value of one larger one. To which add that 10 bombs are statistically much more likely to score a hit than one bomb is. Since code has no use for AP at all - nor for larger bombs - in city bombing - or even in anti unit bombing - using big bombs ashore has no meaning whatever in game terms: except that you must reduce the game effects of your bombers compared to using smaller bombs.

GG was clever in his concept: it meant he didn't need a lot of types of bombs. It was a quick and dirty way to approximate loads of all kinds of bombers. He used different bombs mainly so they would fit on different planes - and the game more or less converts them to a scale to figure out effect. It is our fault we want more detail and more accuracy - and we suffer when we can't get as much as we dream of.

[JeffroK]

Sid, you dont want to show Tiger Force, great, totally up to you. As you have fiddled with the system to make your view on things work I'm sure other views would fail.
As for "ill considered", its far better than many of the phrases which have been posted around here, are you now taking on the role of moderator. It would be interesting to go back over other items you have made calls upon, Hudson fighter bombers, the jeep tracks over the Owen Stanley's for a start.
 
I want to show it, great, totally up to me.
 
As the 6 & 10 ton bombs were not used tactically, their inability to hurt ground units is a moot point.
 
But have you tried hitting an airfield/port/city with 20-30 Tallboy or Grand Slam. Accuracy and chance of a hit would be improved by the crews rating at 90+ experience.
 
I'll let you know how they work.

[m10bob]

Grand Slam bomb