Test Scenario: War in the East_Divisional Level

[tweber]

Note that things like "Stand and die orders" can't be really modelled, you cannot force a unit to have 100% losses retreat treshold..Same for Kiev pocket, what can only be done is to give additional VP for some locations of for kills, or additional att/def, readiness or morale bonuses for some time.

You can model this by changing morale. You would need the two sides to have different people or they will both 'stand and die'

Let's put the mud effect in as I'm sure someone will be doing a graphic for that soon.

There is a graphic for mud in the graphics / event directory.

[PDiFolco]

Thanks tweber,
About mud graphics, there's even one in Nick69 mod !
Also, I'm really wanting to redo the production system in order to keep "historical" OoB, the idea would be to buy directly entire divisions through cards by paying pp (cities will only produce pp and supplies, maybe staff and ships too..).
Dunno what to do with Research in this case, I suspect I'd have to dump it and replace it by other "research" cards to give access to new troops (eg 43'PzDiv with Tiger tanks,  etc..), have to think some more about it [;)]
 

[Redmarkus5]

Hi PD.  I think the time of mud is called the 'Rasputa' in Russia.  I need to look it up.  It's defintely worse than snow and it affects both sides equally.  Snow should affect the Germans more than the Russians in 1941 and 1942 I think. 
 
With the OOB I'm going to take the trucks away from the Mot Divs and strenghten the Russian reserve units; they're too weak.  I've played 2 turns with the Axis side and the supply is looking a bit more realistic, but probably still too high.  I can build 100 infantry plus 4 medium tanks, 2 fighters and a few other bits while still having a good supply stock.  However, the Germans did bring their own reserve units into the battle (maybe 10 divisions) and these are not in the OOB.  How do I make them appear later?  Say 2 each turn for 5 turns?

[SMK-at-work]

Boy do I have some things to say about Siberians!!
 
I did a lot of research into the Siberians for CEAW, and generally speaking the arrival of a big bunch of veteran troops at Moscow in late 1941 is a myth.
 
About 100,000 Siberian infantry arrived from August-December in 12 or so divisions, but they arrived 1 division at a time, and were spread out around several armies - 2 divisions went to the 7th Army covering the Svir river border with Finland.
 
The Siberians were not veterans any more than other conscripts in the army were.  the USSR had a conscript army, and the Kalkhin gol had been almost 2 exactly years previously - so all the conscripts from that conflict had left the ranks!  There is some mention in one source of an army (24th army?) assembling in the Ukraine I think that mentions some concentration of "Siberian" veterans.
 
the number of "Siberians" who actually fought the Japanese was quite small - IRC 2 infantry divisions, a couple of tank and machine-gun brigades is all.  there were more Soviet veterans from the Finland war!
 
I did once post a list of the rifle divisions sent from east of the Urals, but I can't find it anywhere so I'll use this one from slitherine's CEAW forum to illustrate the point:
 

Siberian units sent west in 1941:
 
Central Asian MD
2 of the 4 Rifle Divs moved - 194 (Mtn) Sep 41 and 238 Oct 41

Trans Baikal MD
3 of the 4 Rifle Divs moved - 65 Oct 41 93 Nov 41 114 Oct 41

Far Eastern MD
5 of the 16 Rifle Divs moved (21,26,32,92,70) although 92 did not go to Moscow but Leningrad.
101st Mtn (possibly 101st Motorised?) which was also sent west in Oct 41.
69th Motorised might have been an ordinary Rifle Div but whatever it was it was sent west and destroyed in Oct 41.

Info from "The Red Army Order of Battle in the Great Patrotic War" - Pairier and Conner.

 
note that many of the "siberians" units were not from the Far Eastern military district (which is the one facing the Japanese), and some of them were destroyed as units well before December 1941. 
 
The Russian troops that rolled up the Germans in December 1941 were mostly new troops that had been held in reserve and given some training and decent equipment, and hte Germans had no idea that they existed.  So the Germans thought the Russians must have called up units from reserve somewhere...and Siberia was the obvious place, so they all got called "Siberians".
 
Now IMO this is one of the things that AT can do quite well - you can riase a few new armies and hold them behind Moscow for a bit to allow them to train up - the "frontline" armies can be fed just enough replacements to keep them alive, while these new armies are getting better turn by turn.
 
And that's pretty much what the Soviets did.
 
So if you want to simulate Siberians the division numbers are above & you can give them one-off reinforcements of 1 division for each of those at the appropriate time.  In addition the Soviets transfered 300 tanks and 1000 a/c - all of them obsolete types (there were no T34's in Siberia for example), so a few units of low tech a/c and armour could be added too.

[SMK-at-work]

Another point....Russian militia units were all eventually either disbanded or changed to regular or even guards units over time, so there's no need for a seperate troop type.
 
I'd suggest that instead of that it would be appropriate to have a card/PP event to raise militia units at Moscow and Leningrad.  the militia units raised would be level 1 infantry, with all other infantry on the map being level 2.  That way they can be upgraded later on if the Sov player wants to, as they actually were, but for an apporpriate cost.
 
IIRC there were about 20 Moscow militia divisions, and about 11 or 14 Leningrad ones, plus a few other single units at Kiev, Kharkov, one or 2 other places

[seille]

@PDI
 
Since i played a lot with troops buyable by action cards i must warn you a bit here.
This will make the fight for the russians MUCH easier since they can direct the troops
directly to the right places (arrival cards). The problem here is that they can set this as a reaction on enemy attacks.
Means when the have a crisis near Leningrad they could send 100% of the production to Leningrad.
 
Germany on the other side can´t have arrival hexes close to the front, so they have a clear disadvantage here.
I know that problem too good from some of my 1939 games.
 
I´ll look at this scenario when it´s finished, but i still like the original very much.
Some things i saw on the screenshot are imho not realistic like the roads thru the pripjet swamps or all the fortifications
near Minsk, Kiev and in the Pripjet swamps.

[Redmarkus5]

Hi SMK - thanks for the great input. The details on units and 'Siberians' are very helpful and we'll try to model that. Not sure about using action cards due to the AI issues discussed earlier and also Seille's point above. But great to have your ideas ongoing! Thanks

[Redmarkus5]

Hi Seille. Thanks - I agree with your comments about action cards.

The fortifications are actually historical. They represent the Stalin Line and are in the historical positions. Actually, it extended further north and I have now added that as well. Although this line had been stripped of its heavy weapons, my reading indicates that it was still a barrier and that the Soviets did use it. Maybe it's too strong? The AI may not use it effectively anyway, but I wanted it there to slow the Axis advance a bit.

I put the road through the Pripet there because it was possible to advance via the marshes. The Germans opted to go around, but I think that in 1944 Soviet armies successfully took this route as one part of operation Bagration. I wanted to give the option to both sides. I noted that the AI blew all the bridges there during my last test game - very impressive AI! Maybe I should blow them during the design phase, just to make it a harder route to take? (BTW, the TOAW Russian war scenarios also include this road, as I recall).

Red

[Redmarkus5]

Hi PDF. Updated scenario is now posted at the Scenario Bank. Main changes:

1. Updated Soviet OOB to add more artillery to HQ units.
2. Removed Sov AF HQ unit - it was there in error.
3. Improved readiness of reserve armies.
4. Extended Stalin Line to more accurate historical locations

I like SMK's input on the Siberians and the Militia units. Let's add 1 reinforcement division from 'the East' per turn for 10 turns, arriving in Gorky. How to deal with Militia?

Looking forward to seeing mud and partisans!

Regards,

Red

[SMK-at-work]

The Stalin line did exist and was used, but it wasn't very effective - certainly not as much as it would be if represented by fortresses of fortifications - it was being disassembled when Barbarossa started, and was hastily "reactivated" with whatever was around. IMO it should be ignored.

Checking Glantz's "Stumbling Colossus" - the Stalin line was being moved forwards - sections were under construction along the new borders with Germany, Hungary and Romania in hte areas the Sov's had taken in 1939-40.

[Redmarkus5]

Hi SMK. There's disagreement on this as it was the wepaons and not the reinforced positions that were being moved and the move was not complete by the time of Barbarossa: it only started in 1940. The general responsible reported that 40% of the line had been moved. Here's a photo of a remaining Stalin Line pillbox in Belarus: there are many like it dating from the late 1930s all along the former SU borders. This link:

(http://images.google.co.uk/imgresimgurl ... =143&prev=)

will take you to two tables showing how many of these pillboxes had been constructed up to June 1941 in both the Stalin and Molotov Lines. I am inclined to side with those who represent the Stalin Line as an obstacle of some importance. However, it's not a huge issue - I only put it in because it appears on most maps of the campaign and is mentioned by several sources If there's a huge clamour, we'll remove it.

Finally, the Line did extend quite far into the Pripet; presumably because the Russians knew that it WAS possible to advance by that route?

[Redmarkus5]

the link again!

[PDiFolco]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Hi PDF. Updated scenario is now posted at the Scenario Bank. Main changes:

1. Updated Soviet OOB to add more artillery to HQ units.
2. Removed Sov AF HQ unit - it was there in error.
3. Improved readiness of reserve armies.
4. Extended Stalin Line to more accurate historical locations

I like SMK's input on the Siberians and the Militia units. Let's add 1 reinforcement division from 'the East' per turn for 10 turns, arriving in Gorky. How to deal with Militia?

Looking forward to seeing mud and partisans!

Regards,

Red

Ok, I'll try to reworl on this this evening. About Militia I suggest to make them "level 0" infantry, upgradable to Infantry I. Or else maybe they can be un-upgradable but "transformed" by event to regular Inf when they have enough xp - I have to check the possible checks ! [;)]

[Redmarkus5]

Hi PDF.

A large number of the Moscow Militia divisions were wiped out in front of the city during the fighting before the Soviet December counter offensive. The high command was bitterly attacked by many for sacrificing so many poorly trained/equipped men, but others say that this was one important factor that slowed the Axis advance. Several of these divisions survived the battle and went on to become regular army divisions and even Guards divisions in some cases. This is what we need to model, so your approach sounds good to me.

Red

[SMK-at-work]

Hi PDF - yes there's actually quite a lot of information around about the Stalin line - it's not unknown by any means.
 
However it was in the process of being moved - yes "just" the weapons, but bunkers aren't much use without weapons!  Many of the weapons were in storage pending being shifted to the new border forts. 
 
the new border fortifications are now often referred to as the Molotov line (because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that defined the new borders) - there's a good article on it on Wiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_Line and at hte RKKA page at http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/lines1941.htm (which includes data on the preparedness of both the Stalin and Molotov lines) - note that by June 22 only a small portion of the forts were operational, and although many more had been built the majority were still just in the planning stages.
 
Had either line been complete they would ahve been a useful obstacle, but hte German attack managed to catch the Russians at the mid point when neither was of much use.

[Redmarkus5]

Hej SMK; Re the Stalin Line.
 
OK, we'll agree to disagree about it's effect in 1941   However, what we're trying to achieve with it here is to somehow mirror the extremely rapid German advance up to early July, followed by a long, painful slog towards Moscow, via the battle of Smolensk etc. without going hugely fictional and the line did exist, effective or no.  The mix of items we're adding to achieve this are:
- Soviet historical reserve formations now start on the map and are not depending on the AI to create them correctly.
- Edited the terrain to represent some real obstacles more effectively, at the cost of 100% map making accuracy.
- The Stalin line in all its glory (or not, if the AI or Human player doesn't use it).
- Supply changes and research changes.
- Partisans appearing in the rear - they won't need supplies as they 'live off the land'.
- Mud (Rasputa?) before the snows of winter come.
- anything else we can collectively think of.
 
Please bear with us and do feel free to test the scenario as it evolves.  As you clearly have a lot of solid info, your ongoing ideas will be very valuable!
 
Red-M

[seille]

@redmarkus
What SMK said sounds good to me.
 
I´ve read also a lot about Barbarossa and it was often fortifications not manned, no guns or simply not finished.
At least it was not that kind of fortification like Sevastopol. And for the normal digging in you have the entrenchment.
Best is probably to test this in a PBEM or against yourself and check if you can break that line with your german forces
or if you can reach Moscow until winter starts. Such a fortification expecially in a line can be a pain when manned cause
the attacker can´t go for concentric attacks. He has to break a hole in that wall first do start the effective attacks.

[SMK-at-work]

IMO what stopped the Germans was the weather and supply - when the Russians counterattacked in December there were long sections of the front where the Germans actually outnumbered them - one count has 1.7 million Germans in AG centre facing 1.1 million Russians, but there are reasons to believe that's a bit lopsided - counting many Germans in rear areas but not similar Russians...but overall teh numbers weer not strongly in the favour of the Sov's.
 
Mud - rasputitsa - was definitely a factor in this - it stopped everything for about a month in October 1941, which was a bit earlier than expected, but only by a week or 2 - you might like to have a slightly random start?
 
For the purposes of the game it should happen twice yearly - October (autumn) and April (Spring), but only in what is now Russian, Belarus and the Ukraine, plus Finland in Spring only.  It needs to stop all mechanised movement, and probably air ops, and reduce infantry to about 1 hex move/turn.
 
Soviet supply was also abysmal...but not nearly as abysmal as German supply.  They were worn out -their equipment was worn out, their troops were worn out, the airforce was pretty much worn out - 1000 aircraft lost in the 1st 2 months, 2100 by December...from 2600 at the start, or 80% attrition.  the land forces had lost about 600,000 casualties - 20% of their army plus all their replacements since the start of the campaign, and the panzer divisions were down to about 1/3rd strength on average.
 
Of course the Soviets had suffered 10 times the LW loses in aircraft - 21000 or so aircraft, of which 10,000 were from air combat....but they could replace the numbers much more easily than the LW could in the long term, albeit at lower quality, and their war effort did not depend so much on high class air support.  Pretty mcuh ditto for troops.
 
Russia mobilised an average of 1.1 million men PER MONTH in 1941.....a truly staggering number.  They were not well trained, but they could fight defensively.  Some of them were only raised as construction troops and so there could be a case for a "construction" unit which has even less combat capability than current engineers.
 
I'm not sure how to simulate the fast advances of the first week or 2 of Barbarossa, other than by giving the Soviets extremely low readisness values so they cannot delay the Germans much.  the armies within about 100km of hte border were only at 40-50% strength, those in reserve back another 100-200 km were at about 60% IIRC (all on average).
 
Assuming the Germans are at 100% readiness it would seem reasonable for the Soviets to be at 20-30% as a starting point for testing - I'm slwly modding the initial OOB for the WW2 scenario that comes with the game and am starting them at 25%
 
 

[serg3d1]

Some nitpicks:
Bazookas in the game represent not exactly bazookas, but infantry AT. I think you should give them to German only, to represent better anti-tank capabilities of german infantry. During the first weeks of war german infantry burned a lot of soviet tanks.
Also, to balance soviet heavy tanks you can give german tank destroyers - they had some, though crappy ones, 47mm on the Pz-I chassy

About Stalin line. It was not disassembled. I'ts a myth. Some weapon was removed, but the line was functional.
Stalin line was not effective
1. because fortifications weren't filled with infantry - mobilization problems.
2. german assault groups were experts in carcking fortifications, so even if there would be enough infantry it would still not pose insurmountable problem
(From Dubno-Brody-Lutzk by A.Isaev - modern reevalation of East Front war)

So Stalin line could be represented, but fortification value probably shouldn't be very high.

About Bagration and Pripyat marshes - there weren't any roads, Red Army engineers built wooden paths for tanks and heavy equipment through the marshes, using their superior terrain knowledge. Red Army officers bragged later, that germans were too trusting their maps.

[Redmarkus5]

Hi SMK.

I totally agree regarding mud + supply BUT I think we're missing some key points regarding Soviet resistance around Smolensk between July and Sept. This was a huge battle that seems to be missed in many games modelling this campaign. As you know, Timoshenko's counter offensive was only the start and the Germans were driven back in many places, having to fall back on prepared positions.

A couple of points to consider:

1. Hitler's directive 34 issued on 30 July 1941 states, (due to) "The appearance of large enemy forces before the front, the supply situation and the necessity of giving 2nd and 3rd Pz Groups time to recover etc... Army Group Cente will go on the defence."
2. Those soviet forces that had appeared included 59 divisions engaged. This battle was the first one accorded the description 'great battle' by the soviets during WW2.
3. Halder observed that the Russians were less well armed and poorly led at a tactical level, "but there they are". He concluded on 11 August that Germany had underestimated the Soviet Army.

It's also worth noting (PDF) that up to 31 July the Germans had already suffered 213,000 casualties with ony 47,000 replacements being received. So, replacements should only be around 25% of losses at this stage and supply needs to be modelled accordingly; it's not just ammo and fuel, but men killed by the enemy that caused the German's problems.

Cheers,

Red