Best fighter in WW2???

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Rainer

You are using GLIDERS! Doesn't count. Dismissed.

[;)]

[:D]What do you call a zero without a working engine? A glider! [:D]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: crsutton
It was indeed one of the best and one of my favorites. However, the short range and high pilot skill required to master the 109 made it obsolete in terms of a modern total war.

Best fighter means so many things and there are so many criteria quoted from the posters here. However, as I said before, any plane that did not have moderate to long range must be disqualifed. The 109 and many other fine planes listed here did not have the capability to project air power into enemy territory. You can't win a war without this ability. It is like having a football team that only plays defence. Sooner of later, you will get scored on and lose the game.

Another point that bears mentioning in this thread is that the human factor must be a consideration when picking the "best fighter". In a total war sitation such as WWII, equipment that favored the "average" user is always superior. The reason being that a long grinding war tends to produce much more average manpower talent than skilled. Death and attrition tends to use men up, leaving a greener pool of replacements. The 109 for all of it's excellence was regarded as a tough plane to master and a deadly tool in the hands of an expert pilot. However, the 190 was generally considered a much more suitable plane because it was easier to fly and thus more forgiving to the average pilot. And for every good pilot, there had to be at least ten times that number of average or below average pilots.

A "hot" plane is not necessarily the best plane. My two cents anyway.[;)]

With that line of reasoning, a Sherman would be a better tank than a Panther. I reject the line of reasoning that requires strategic, operational or other irrelevant considerations. The question was "best fighter", you are more in the "most useful fighter"-territory with your line of reasoning. And while that is all and well from an overall strategic point of view, the purpose of this thread is to determine which fighter is the best.

Nedless to say, that question must center on the ability of the plane, not the quality of the pilot, not the ability to produce it, not the amount of fuel it could be tanked with.

The analogy would be that we are comparing swords here, you are talking about how it is best not to be surrounded or outnumbered or starving while using that sword. An interesting discussion for sure, but irrelevant to the question.

Please explain to me how you got your "purpose of this thread" from the orginial post. Perhaps you got a secret email from the poster?

Well, we just have to disagree here. No definition of "best" was really given at the beginning of this thread. The definition you stated is yours alone. In my opinion "best" is defined as what serves the purpose of winning the conflict. In the end, all else does not matter.

And yes, the sherman tank was better than the panther. But then again, we are looking at it differently and I don't think we are going to find common ground here.

[niceguy2005]

Sliced bread after an unfortunate encounter with an A6M2....

[Rainer]

Tallyhoo! Scratch one toast! [:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Like it, disagree, or not, it's a purely objective fact.

It is also a selectively chosen fact. The 229 doesn't even make it remotely to the list, nor does the Finnish AF come off looking particularly good, because the Finnish AF got clobbered when the Soviet Union stopped fielding the worst aircraft flown in WW2 and started putting trained pilots in them.

The Finnish AF never went up against anyone's "A- Team" until 1943, right about the time they started looking for an "exit strategy."

What do you mean FAF got "clobbered" ? You might want to check your facts bit more.

Lets start:

1939-1940 Winter War

145 combat aircraft against the enemy's 1500-2000 planes.
241 air victories; main fighter Fokker D.XXI,
kill ratio 16:1

1941-1944 Continuation War

40 combat aircraft at the beginning, about 500 at the end of the war
1567 air victories Main fighters: Brewster B-39, kill ratio 32:1 and
Messerschmitt Bf 109 G, kill ratio 25:1.

FAF did not fare too badly with Bf 109 G2/G6 either...25:1 in 1943-44 is very very good. And first 109s came to Finland in 1943 when Soviets already had decent planes.

Don't bother arguing with diehl... If your facts don't agree with his made-up "facts" then they're just not going to register for him...

[Big B]

Inconceivable!

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

ORIGINAL: Rainer

Sliced Bread climbs much better than a Zero. I did a comprehensive test with my toaster (650 W, Win 98, SP32), and there was no comparison. While 9 our of 7 slices of - unprepared - bread climbed between 2 and 15 inches in total - which comes down to appr. 0.182635543655 centimeters per second, the Zero refused to even leave the toaster. Please note that these are Central European Seconds as defined by Law (Eur.Comm. 123456/54321 Bruxelles, Nov 3, 1782).
Initially the Zero I used for testing did not even fit into the toaster. I therefor prepared the Zero by ways of "cratering". It still refused to climb! Instead, after setting the toaster to operational state, the Zero simply melted down!
Careful examination reveiled that this particular Zero was made of a substance called "plastic" (or something similar). But that is neither explonation nor excuse because this Zero was manufactured by a Japanese company with a high reputation of making first class Zeros.
Conclusion: to claim Zeros climb better than Sliced Bread (whatever the year of production) is a false claim and has to be refused by all people considering themselves to be part of the civilized and tax paying world.

PS: Some may argue that Zeros scaled differently (this one was 1:72) may be able to achieve different and even better results. I doubt that and I am determined to stay with the facts observed. I also recommend strongly to include Toaster Test Environment Results (TTER) in all upcoming discussions.

[:D][:D][:D]
Chez

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: mdiehl



It is also a selectively chosen fact. The 229 doesn't even make it remotely to the list, nor does the Finnish AF come off looking particularly good, because the Finnish AF got clobbered when the Soviet Union stopped fielding the worst aircraft flown in WW2 and started putting trained pilots in them.

The Finnish AF never went up against anyone's "A- Team" until 1943, right about the time they started looking for an "exit strategy."

What do you mean FAF got "clobbered" ? You might want to check your facts bit more.

Lets start:

1939-1940 Winter War

145 combat aircraft against the enemy's 1500-2000 planes.
241 air victories; main fighter Fokker D.XXI,
kill ratio 16:1

1941-1944 Continuation War

40 combat aircraft at the beginning, about 500 at the end of the war
1567 air victories Main fighters: Brewster B-39, kill ratio 32:1 and
Messerschmitt Bf 109 G, kill ratio 25:1.

FAF did not fare too badly with Bf 109 G2/G6 either...25:1 in 1943-44 is very very good. And first 109s came to Finland in 1943 when Soviets already had decent planes.

Don't bother arguing with diehl... If your facts don't agree with his made-up "facts" then they're just not going to register for him...

[:D]And if you do get the better of him , he will serously bad mouth you at madcow. [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Big B

Inconceivable!

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

ORIGINAL: Rainer

Sliced Bread climbs much better than a Zero. I did a comprehensive test with my toaster (650 W, Win 98, SP32), and there was no comparison. While 9 our of 7 slices of - unprepared - bread climbed between 2 and 15 inches in total - which comes down to appr. 0.182635543655 centimeters per second, the Zero refused to even leave the toaster. Please note that these are Central European Seconds as defined by Law (Eur.Comm. 123456/54321 Bruxelles, Nov 3, 1782).
Initially the Zero I used for testing did not even fit into the toaster. I therefor prepared the Zero by ways of "cratering". It still refused to climb! Instead, after setting the toaster to operational state, the Zero simply melted down!
Careful examination reveiled that this particular Zero was made of a substance called "plastic" (or something similar). But that is neither explonation nor excuse because this Zero was manufactured by a Japanese company with a high reputation of making first class Zeros.
Conclusion: to claim Zeros climb better than Sliced Bread (whatever the year of production) is a false claim and has to be refused by all people considering themselves to be part of the civilized and tax paying world.

PS: Some may argue that Zeros scaled differently (this one was 1:72) may be able to achieve different and even better results. I doubt that and I am determined to stay with the facts observed. I also recommend strongly to include Toaster Test Environment Results (TTER) in all upcoming discussions.

[:D][:D][:D]
Chez

[:D] Hey someone else who posts his quotes from the top. Don't let Bobo catch you. [:D]

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

[:D]And if you do get the better of him , he will serously bad mouth you at madcow. [:D]

Ooooo! Now there's a fate worse than death.[:'(][:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

[:D]And if you do get the better of him , he will serously bad mouth you at madcow. [:D]

Ooooo! Now there's a fate worse than death.[:'(][:D]

[:D][:D][:D]

[Doggie]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


I know this thread has already appeared over at Madcowsteakhouse. And I for one don't appreciate it. That comment will no doubt earn me a few snide comments casting aspersions on my parentage or sexuality. But WE don't have to be inflamatory or act like residents in the monkey cage flinging monkey poo at passers bye. [:)]

Actually, the monkey poo usually gets slung right here. That's what get these threads noticed at MCS. It usually involves a series of personal insults being slung at people like me who aint even said nothing here, like the above, or the usual gang of axis fan boy "experts" who think the only opinions that should be voiced here are their own.

And these guys are usually the ones who can't engage in a conversation about history or aviation technology without resorting to "name calling and foul comments ". Just because some European college boy thinks everything manufactured in the United States is inferior to Master Race technology does not make him an "expert" or the rest of us "racists" and "morons".[8|]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Doggie

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


I know this thread has already appeared over at Madcowsteakhouse. And I for one don't appreciate it. That comment will no doubt earn me a few snide comments casting aspersions on my parentage or sexuality. But WE don't have to be inflamatory or act like residents in the monkey cage flinging monkey poo at passers bye. [:)]

Actually, the monkey poo usually gets slung right here. That's what get these threads noticed at MCS. It usually involves a series of personal insults being slung at people like me who aint even said nothing here, like the above, or the usual gang of axis fan boy "experts" who think the only opinions that should be voiced here are their own.

And these guys are usually the ones who can't engage in a conversation about history or aviation technology without resorting to "name calling and foul comments ". Just because some European college boy thinks everything manufactured in the United States is inferior to Master Race technology does not make him an "expert" or the rest of us "racists" and "morons".[8|]

[:)]Actually I noticed it the other way around. But I am impressed that someone from the steakhouse came over to comment openly here, in the open. I am not European (unless you count that my ancestors came from there about eight or nine generations back) , and while I did go to college , I did it part time while in the service (so by the time I finally graduated I was hardly a boy) , I have never thought the USA as inferior in anything. While you might think me a "moron”, that's your prerogative, I would take great personal offense at being called a racist. There, does that cover it? What I find offensive, is for those who take discussions "here" to your forum "there". To transport what is said without ones knowledge or ability to speak for one's self. As a matter of fact, I find it cowardly. Most of the people here will do their best to limit personal attacks and call upon others to do the same. Does the Steak house? Maybe I've been reading the wrong posts? I haven't seen much evidence, so perhaps you'd be good enough to direct me? Then maybe I can apologize and point out what a shinning example the Steakhouse is in decorum. Please, enlighten me. I greatly look forward to it.

[UniformYankee]

ORIGINAL: Doggie

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


I know this thread has already appeared over at Madcowsteakhouse. And I for one don't appreciate it. That comment will no doubt earn me a few snide comments casting aspersions on my parentage or sexuality. But WE don't have to be inflamatory or act like residents in the monkey cage flinging monkey poo at passers bye. [:)]

Actually, the monkey poo usually gets slung right here. That's what get these threads noticed at MCS. It usually involves a series of personal insults being slung at people like me who aint even said nothing here, like the above, or the usual gang of axis fan boy "experts" who think the only opinions that should be voiced here are their own.

And these guys are usually the ones who can't engage in a conversation about history or aviation technology without resorting to "name calling and foul comments ". Just because some European college boy thinks everything manufactured in the United States is inferior to Master Race technology does not make him an "expert" or the rest of us "racists" and "morons".[8|]

But the "monkey poo" wouldn't start here if not first incited by SH Morons.

No bunch is perfect - WITPers included - but we don't go chasing the morons - they come chasing us. Jealousy I guess.

[:)]

[Doggie]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


[:)]Actually I noticed it the other way around. But I am impressed that someone from the steakhouse came over to comment openly here, in the open.

Huh? You might have noticed that us "morons" have been here a lot longer than you.
Doggie
Posts: 2881
Joined: 9/19/2001

mdiehl
Posts: 4786
Joined: 10/21/2000

AW1Steve
Posts: 928
Joined: 3/10/2007


So who are you to tell us to stay off "your" turf?

And we've been coming here to comment "in the open" quite a bit longer than you have.

I have never thought the USA as inferior in anything.

Your pal "Panzerjaeger" does. Here's a whole thread about your buddy and others telling us how much the U.S.A. sucks

While you might think me a "moron”, that's your prerogative, I would take great personal offense at being called a racist.

If you think the Japanese were the bad guys in World War II, then you're a racist, according to some of your "intellectual" friends from Sweden. In fact, you and everyone else in the United States are "morons," "liars" illiterates, and can't find your own country on a map, according to certain "enlightened" Europeans, in addition to being genocidal war mongerers and baby murdering fascists.

I take it you don't have any problems with such characterizations? Some of us take offense.

What I find offensive, is for those who take discussions "here" to your forum "there". To transport what is said without ones knowledge or ability to speak for one's self. As a matter of fact, I find it cowardly.

Who doesn't have the "ability to speak for one's self"? Nobody is stopping Hortland or anyone else from saying what ever he wants at the MCS. As a matter of fact, the MCS was created with the blessings of Matrix as a replacement for the now defunct AoW forum. You may have noticed repeated requests from the admin here to take your non gaming related political problems there, as we don't care if you're offended because everyone else don't agree with your agenda.

Most of the people here will do their best to limit personal attacks and call upon others to do the same.

Yeah, right.[8|] That's why my attention was called to remarks like:

"act like residents in the monkey cage flinging monkey poo at passers bye."

Perhaps you can provide me with a link to where I or some of the other several hundred residents of our "monkey cage" provoked you to make such a remark?

Does the Steak house? Maybe I've been reading the wrong posts? I haven't seen much evidence, so perhaps you'd be good enough to direct me? Then maybe I can apologize and point out what a shinning example the Steakhouse is in decorum. Please, enlighten me. I greatly look forward to it.

It appears you've been reading some of Hortland's posts at MCS He and everyone else is pretty much free to say anything he wants. We call that the "American Way".

As for "decorum," we have several different sub forums. Slinging monkey poo or anything else is strictly prohibited in the sections devoted to sports, movies, and gaming. There is an absolute zero tolerance policy for horse's asses hijacking gaming threads with their political agenda in our gaming sub forum, for example. Personally enforced by yours truly. As opposed to this particular Matrix sub forum, for example, where the "War in the Pacific" board seems to be a gathering place for annoying trolls.

But the "monkey poo" wouldn't start here if not first incited by SH Morons.

No bunch is perfect - WITPers included - but we don't go chasing the morons - they come chasing us. Jealousy I guess

UniformYankee
Posts: 75
Joined: 7/7/2007


So "we" came chasing you, noob?[8|]

And it "incites" you when Americans object to "enlightened" remarks about how much we suck? Too bad.

[UniformYankee]

ORIGINAL: Doggie



Huh? You might have noticed that us "morons" have been here a lot longer than you.

No ... we don't think so ...


We belong here ... you do not ...


We have played Uncommon Valor for years .. then we have played WITP for years ... have you?

While we have played these games for years .. we have posted in these Matrix forums.

You (all) might have also posted in these forums .. but you have not played the games .. hence you are not really FROM HERE.

We are.

You can attack us. But you are not from here. You are from there. You attack from afar. We defend from here.

We have been here longer than you. And we are from here. You are from elsewhere.

[Mike Scholl]

Would someone please explain to me just what all the preceeding "he said..., she said.., yo mamma wears army boots" nonsense has to do with "The Best Fighter of WW II" (Which is the subject of this thread).  Let's tone it down and get back to the subject at hand before some moderator shuts the thread and tosses everybody off the forum.

[Gen.Hoepner]

Do not get how this thread has become an argue so far...[&:] Please cut the tones down and go somewhere else to fight each other

[bradfordkay]

Doggie wrote:

"If you think the Japanese were the bad guys in World War II, then you're a racist, according to some of your "intellectual" friends from Sweden. In fact, you and everyone else in the United States are "morons," "liars" illiterates, and can't find your own country on a map, according to certain "enlightened" Europeans, in addition to being genocidal war mongerers and baby murdering fascists.

I take it you don't have any problems with such characterizations? Some of us take offense."


I would too, if I had seen it here in the WITP forums. But I have never seen any such comments on this forum. So why would you characterize the WITP forum in such a manner? Especially in light of the comments made in the Saloon about members of this forum...

C'mon, Doggie, this thread had been pretty cordial throughout, with people even agreeing with MDiehl. Why do these threads always have to end up in mudslinging?

[Dixie]

I'm surprised this lasted until pages 9-10 until it went off topic and into the realm of name-calling....

Can we keep the discussion from the General Forum about The Evil Japanese vs The Evil Americans in the General Forum? And maybe we could even keep this one civilisied? Or am I asking too much?

[DuckofTindalos]

Yes, you are...