Making subs stealthier

[Lebatron]

As it works now, subs in adjacent sea zones can always be seen. While it's automatic that your going to see subs if they're in the same sea zone as your forces, should it also be automatic when they're adjacent? No way. I have a simple method in mind that can really improve realism in this case. Compare the ASW value of the highest rated unit to the EV of the sub. If the EV of sub is better, then it remains cloaked. Sweet and simple.

This would work well with the replay changes I suggested in another thread. Together with that idea, sub movements would be better hidden during replay.



Can you tell I got a lot of time on my hands? I'm home sick today.

[christian brown]

Hmmmmmm.......liking the idea of the subs remaining hidden when adjacent as a matter of principle.........but:
What happens when you are adjacent and then move into that sea zone?
Automatic battle?
Seems a bit sticky..........like what if the sub is out of torpedoes...........then you're handing them a free ambush.
Op-fire if you just keep rolling? Op-Fire if you move back out? Seems too powerful........
Interested to hear what you have to add.....

[Lebatron]

Honestly I didn't think of that. But as I think about it I see no problem. It should cause op-fire if your surprised by subs in the area. If they are out of torpedoes, the new out of supply rule on op-fire handles that well. In practice, the UN usually moves transports over the chains anyway, so getting surprised by a sub sitting along the cost of Africa should not be much of a surprise. Send a LF to take care of it. It's in the center of the Atlantic where the subs could lie in hiding that I would expect a surprise op-fire for passing through.

[kondor]

I like the general idea. Making subs stealthy would be a good thing, but I don´t want to make them to powerful...
How about that when they are in stealth mode-they cannot op fire? They just remain hidden, and become active just when spotted by LF-s (and air units). This is only for opponent turn of course...

[Lebatron]

Guys, allowing the subs to op-fire on surprised transports would not unbalance things. For one thing, when you wish to move a transport through a subs sea zone, don't you usually drive the sub deep first? That's SOP when you have the means, and when you don't you take your chance that op-fire won't hit your sub. That cituation is already present in normal games, so why worry about it for hidden subs? If they happen to be hidden in the typical transport routes, for instance they attacked but then didn't move, you would have to deal with it and it would be no different than before. You move ships or air in, that exposes the sub, and you attack. What my suggestion really has an effect on is the replay improvement I asked for. In this pic, I outline the central Atlantic. Notice that in no place can U-boats hide when there are adjacent fleets around. Using my ASW vs EV suggestion, U-boats could hide here. Then during replays since they started off in FOG they could moved around without the UN seeing that. Say for instance they make a run for the Indian Ocean, as long as they don't pass through an enemy occupied sea zone the entire movement would be hidden. But of coarse in practice that would be kind of hard, but at least this ASW vs EV stealth feature gives subs a realistic ability to hide.

[christian brown]

Thanks for the feedback, it's appreciated. I LOVE the idea. Is it possible to make it so that "hidden" subs do not op-fire? If they are trying to "hide" why give away their position? I really liked your comment about them making a break for the Indian Ocean, one sub could "clear the way" and have the others "sneak" by. This is probably technically infeasible and perhaps even not very well thought out..........your thoughts?
All in all, I'd tend to agree with your idea.

[WanderingHead]

It is a good implementation, but it is not likely to happen.

Remember that the game is done . Fundamental mechanics are not going to change unless broken. I did make a few changes to stock Total War et al that seemed necessary, but mostly I've supported modding ... which is mods not fundamental mechanics. Actually, it is remarkable the fundamental stuff that is exported for modding (mostly combat stuff), but the more this sort of thing gets done the more confusing it is (for playing different scenarios, and for maintaining and debugging code). So it is not something I would lightly encourage.