Deferring Allied entry into war

[James Ward]

Given that you can almost predict when a nation will enter the war and that there are ways to deliver knockout blows on the turn they enter would it be possible to allow you the choice of deferring an ally's entry into the war to counter this?

[hjaco]

There are ways to counter the knockout blow to Italy while it was quite historic that Romania was crushed by CP forces very fast upon their entry. In earlier versions OE was however very susceptible to a knockout blow where they now have a decent fighting chance.

What you are asking for is actually a choice to use your diplomats to further the target countries progress towards or from entry but would that have made sense in a historic simulation ?

[SMK-at-work]

You can always not spend diplomatic points on them if the opponent is doing so......or have an irregular pattern of doing it - eg leave it for several moves and start spending only when they get close.
 
The romanian situation isn't really well done tho - historically the Romanians massed their army to the north to advance into Transylvania - eg see http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourceFileView/worldwari_maps_map36_largerview.htm - 60% of the army is on the northern border whereas in the game it is on the southern border.

[hjaco]

Please note that force dispositions depend on against whom the minor enters.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

You can always not spend diplomatic points on them if the opponent is doing so......or have an irregular pattern of doing it - eg leave it for several moves and start spending only when they get close.

The romanian situation isn't really well done tho - historically the Romanians massed their army to the north to advance into Transylvania - eg see http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourceFileView/worldwari_maps_map36_largerview.htm - 60% of the army is on the northern border whereas in the game it is on the southern border.

I was thinking mostly of Italy as Turkey was 'fixed' to keep them from surrendering a few turns after they entered the war.
As the CP you know about when Italy will enter. It's not like the TE can ask Italy to slow down it's entry. So the CP can set up to take it out in a turn or two which is quite ahistorical, though this requires some forces to accomplish. Now if the TE could decide when Italy becamse active after it decides to join then this tactic wouldn't be nearly as effective. I'm not sure you'd want to keep all those corps down there for a year or more simply waiting until Italy entered the fray.
Or Italy should get a bunch of trench points and a free move while still 'neutral' to keep it from losing 1/2 it's army the impluse it joins the war.

[SMK-at-work]

AS the TE you know as much about when Italy enters as the CP does - as Hjaco says you can be ready for it assuming you stil have some troops left from France, and although the initial losses can't be prevented it's fairly easy to limit the damage.

[James Ward]

Why should you even have to limit damage? It's a gamey tactic to line up and wait for Italy to enter. There is nothing that can be done about their entry so why should the CP get a free shot at them due to hindsight?

[SMK-at-work]

Everythign we do has the advantage of hindsight...how would you remove it?
 
But even with hindisght it's not a done deal - if the TE is doing a good job then the CP might find itself stretched to hit the Italians at all...I've played games where they have not done so.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Everythign we do has the advantage of hindsight...how would you remove it?

By varying things.

[FrankHunter]

Perhaps no longer displaying how long it is till the nation enters?

[SMK-at-work]

James how would you vary things?

I can think of making diplomatic initiatives worth a random amount sort of like what research is now.

Frank - perhaps don't show it for the opposing side only?  One presumes their allies-to-be might be in some sort of negotiations & therefoer have some idea?

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

James how would you vary things?

I can think of making diplomatic initiatives worth a random amount sort of like what research is now.

Frank - perhaps don't show it for the opposing side only?  One presumes their allies-to-be might be in some sort of negotiations & therefoer have some idea?

The best would be to give the country a 'free' move including an economic phase while they are still technically neutral but I don't think that is possible.
Allowing the side a neutral joins to determine exactly when they join would be good too.
Perhaps you could have 2 or 3 different set ups with different levels of entrenchments and choose which one happens when the country enters?
The mobilization pahse give the other powers chance to make major changes in deployment. Having the exact same set up for all the others is a big advantage to the other side. Eliminating an entire front definately favors the CP.

[hjaco]

Consider that with diplomacy the entry of Italy can wary with up to half a year with just a single turns warning !

So if CP is going to take full advantage and NOT pay the political price to declare war then they may face the possibility that their mighty army consisting of say 15 corps with support units is sitting idle by in the alps for up to half a year. That is going to be during summer of 15' where CP still has the initiative so its obviously going to cost in opportunities elsewhere.

The logic choice for CP is to declare war when they are ready and the sooner the better before the Entente has fully mobilized. The longer they wait the stronger the Entente reaction force will be.

Therefore I don't see the need to disguise actual diplomacy.

I think Italy first and foremost would have deployed troops on their own border if there were CP troops roaming in the alps so its perfectly fine with me that they deploy there.

The request to make a change to the current situation is made on the premise that CP will wait for Italian entry and that they will crush Italy. That's a possibility but no guarantee so IMHO it's not valid as something that is going to happen in each game.

But principally I favor the suggestion by James that setup should not be guaranteed each time especially when Italy has that number of troops. But on the other hand the setup has to make military sense so there is not that many alternatives ?

I still favor an earlier suggestion of mine to introduce alpine hexsides which can not be crossed by movement nor combat. That will also intice a simulation of the historic combat to occur along the Isonzo and/or the main valley access through the central alps with the rest being more or less consisting of small scale action out of the scope of this game.

[SMK-at-work]

James countries do effectively get a "free move" by virtue of being fully mobilised before war starts.

[hjaco]

Good point.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

James countries do effectively get a "free move" by virtue of being fully mobilised before war starts.

But their positions are fixed so you know exactly where they are and their strength every game. A little variety would go a long way IMO.

[hjaco]

ORIGINAL: James Ward

But their positions are fixed so you know exactly where they are and their strength every game. A little variety would go a long way IMO.

Granted.

[esteban]

I think the way you resolve this is to press forward if you are the Allies and try to keep as many CP units tied up so they can't attack Italy the first turn. 
 
But yes, in Italy's case, and maybe Romania, its a bit of a problem.  Maybe vary Italy's setup so that the hex between Trieste and Venice has only a cavalry unit in it, and put the other units in Manta or Venice so that at least they can put up a good defense on the first turn?