How too - attacking well defended base

[Owl]

Problem: Enemy air base covered with CAP, long range air-based radar (AWACs or Mainstay) and has long range AA missiles + short ranged ones backed by AA guns. Long range ground based radar station also present. Additional problem - cap has longer ranged AA missiles than my attacking forces!

Situation: Anti-radiation missiles are shorter ranged by a considerable amount than the enemy long range missiles. To compound this in HCE the AR missiles are themselves moderately easy for defenses to shoot down.

Additional issue: You cannot tell how well (or even if) your own jamming is doing anything. Enemy missiles appear to be launched and are as accurate as they are whether you have a jammer or not (Prowler, etc).

My mission is to destroy enemy air bases. Pacific battleset, last last scenario.
Having fun, but have yet to figure out how to crack the nuts!

[TonyE]

My strategy in a nutshell, cheat!  To attack those LR SAMs I fly my Hornets in at VLow so that they are much harder to detect.  If I can pick off a few of the A-50 Mainstays giving Red extra radar coverage, then I do that.  To further complicate targeting for Red, I pick on the radar units with HARM missiles, a LR Radar will usually be destroyed by a single HARM hit, same for MR Radar and SR Radar units.
 
Later when the longer ranged radars are knocked out, I find I can get some strikes in with A-6.

[Shark7]

I'll give you a few spoilers...and that is exactly what they are, in that you are going to exploit the AI's weaknesses.

A few tactics that will work on the CAP. Bait and switch, or tease them into wasting their long range AAMs at max range.

With the bait and switch you use one group of fighters to lure them into a second group with they may not target until after you fire. It's risky but it often works.

The second thing you can do is to tease them into firing at max range. Move a group of high speed fighters into their range, and after you get the missiles incoming warning, quickly reverse course, go to high altitude and turn on the afterburners...the missiles shoudl run out of fuel before they can catch up to your planes.

Once that is done, you can then engage the enemy cap fairly easily.

On the jamming, aircraft with dedicated jammers require 2 things, 1) be in range 2) radar must be ON for it to work. If a units radar is being jammed you can tell by the presence of a yellow lightning bolt in the upper right hand corner of the target icon on the map.

As far as the AR missiles are concerned. The Wild Weasel missiont type (SEAD) requires the enemy radar to be active for it to work. It is very realistic to take fire from the SAMs as you approach on the supression mission.

A tactic for taking out the SAMs is to use the AR missiles to overload the targets ability to respond and actually use iron bombs to take out the launchers themselves...they'll be too busy shooting down incoming missiles to shoot at your planes (in theory).

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: Owl
Problem: Enemy air base covered with CAP, long range air-based radar (AWACs or Mainstay) and has long range AA missiles + short ranged ones backed by AA guns. Long range ground based radar station also present. Additional problem - cap has longer ranged AA missiles than my attacking forces!
Situation: Anti-radiation missiles are shorter ranged by a considerable amount than the enemy long range missiles. To compound this in HCE the AR missiles are themselves moderately easy for defenses to shoot down.
Additional issue: You cannot tell how well (or even if) your own jamming is doing anything. Enemy missiles appear to be launched and are as accurate as they are whether you have a jammer or not (Prowler, etc).
My mission is to destroy enemy air bases. Pacific battleset, last last scenario.
Having fun, but have yet to figure out how to crack the nuts!

1. Choose your battles: Attack only those enemy forces that directly threaten your objectives. Don't waste ARMs on short range air defense systems whose envelope you don't need to fly through.
2. Use decoys (eg. TALD/ITALD) generously wherever possible, especially in concert with jamming and ARMs. (They soak up enemy SAMs and keep them occupied). Time over target (TOT) is important here.
3. Jamming reduces enemy radar and missile effectiveness by a percentage margin. It does not render them impotent. Don't rely on jamming exclusively, but use it in concert with other tactics.
4. Save your heaviest weapons (ie. high DP value) for the primary target, and only employ them when you're happy that you've reduced enemy AAW defenses to an acceptable margin.

[TonyE]

Well, at least one of the three of us (HC3) isn't into cheating the game, hooray Brad

[PatinAZ]

I dont't think teasing them into firing the long-range SAMs at your speediest fighter, then running for the edge of the range circle is cheating. If I don't do it right, then he's got me. Don't get too deep into the 'red zone'! This is one where F-14s or F-15s are good.
I was doing the Island Wind scenario out of the Westpac battleset. Because of the lack of decent stand-off weapons it's very difficult to go after the SA-5 launchers. While the SA-5 do not not always hit, they always make for a major scare!![X(]

[Owl]

Ok, caviat - I prefer NOT to take advantage of the AI.  If it's cheating then that's a call I'll let others make, I'd prefer to attempt a real world solution.
Frequently the HARM's are shorter ranged than the AA missiles - so then the anti-radar aircraft get KO'd before they can get the radars. 
The scenario I'm working on takes place prior to having any decoys and the like - using them I have no problems.
I'll just keep at it, sooner or later I'll find the way in - or lower my resistance to taking advantage of the AI[;)]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: PatinAZ

I dont't think teasing them into firing the long-range SAMs at your speediest fighter, then running for the edge of the range circle is cheating. If I don't do it right, then he's got me. Don't get too deep into the 'red zone'! This is one where F-14s or F-15s are good.
I was doing the Island Wind scenario out of the Westpac battleset. Because of the lack of decent stand-off weapons it's very difficult to go after the SA-5 launchers. While the SA-5 do not not always hit, they always make for a major scare!![X(]

Cheating no, its just taking advantage of an over-agressive AI that tends to be too generous with its SAM allocations. Truth be told, the AI might not be that much more trigger happy than real world crews would be. The stress level of actual combat would play a part.

Hehe, Island Wind...tough scenario, glad you enjoyed it. [:D] You do have to watch it when flying in range fo the SA-5s, every once in a while those 'Flying Telephone Poles' actually find their mark. I've lost a few F-15s to them before.

[CV32]

I have to say that, imho, anyone who makes real allegations of 'cheating' in a single player game is being pretty silly.[8|]

That said, anyone who takes advantage of 'bugs' or limitations in computer AI to try and 'win', is probably robbing himself of the full simulation experience that might otherwise be possible, but that's his choice.[&:]

I try and impose a few limitations on myself when playing HCE. For example, although HCE has no logistics model (yet), I'll often limit the number of high value weapons (eg. Phoenix) I have available to me, or impose an ROE where there are none, etc.

[Owl]

I didn't plan on getting into a debate on what is cheating and what's not - I cheat at times, in fact I go into scenarios where I've gotten my butt kicked and add F-22's or something way over the top just to kick some butt, then return to sanity (well, my version of it anyway) and move on. 
 
So one more time - back to the topic at hand - how do your SEAD forces with 70 mile ranged missiles take out AA missiles with 90 mile ranges?  You have to pop up to fire - or have to be painted by the target radar.  Maybe my problem is that I am attempting to do it without losses and instead should accept them? 
 

[Divefreak]

ORIGINAL: Owl



So one more time - back to the topic at hand - how do your SEAD forces with 70 mile ranged missiles take out AA missiles with 90 mile ranges?

If those SAM are SA-5 i would simply fly at low or vlow....
Because the SA-5 can´t engage below medium. [:D]
[8D]

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: Owl
So one more time - back to the topic at hand - how do your SEAD forces with 70 mile ranged missiles take out AA missiles with 90 mile ranges? You have to pop up to fire - or have to be painted by the target radar. Maybe my problem is that I am attempting to do it without losses and instead should accept them?

You gotta mix it up, Owl. Jamming, decoys, SEAD/DEAD, etc. There's probably no one methodology that will make those SAMs 'meat on the table' without posing some degree of risk. Exploit the enemy's weaknesses (eg. as Divefreak points out with the altitude envelope limitations of the SA-5), and push your own strengths.

[Owl]

Have to find the enemy weaknesses before I can exploit them!  I got the idea though, just have to keep experimenting.  I wish I could look at weapon systems instead of just platforms - that way my simulated intel guy/gal would tell me about some suspected weaknesses/advantages in various systems.

[NefariousKoel]

Yep, I wish I could get more in-game performance info on ground based SAMs and guns.  Am I missing them somewhere?

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Owl

I didn't plan on getting into a debate on what is cheating and what's not - I cheat at times, in fact I go into scenarios where I've gotten my butt kicked and add F-22's or something way over the top just to kick some butt, then return to sanity (well, my version of it anyway) and move on. 

So one more time - back to the topic at hand - how do your SEAD forces with 70 mile ranged missiles take out AA missiles with 90 mile ranges?  You have to pop up to fire - or have to be painted by the target radar.  Maybe my problem is that I am attempting to do it without losses and instead should accept them? 

Well there are a couple of ways to help. Jamming aircraft will help. No it won't prevent them from firing, but it does mess up the % to hit numbers. It is still risky, but a little less so. going to VLow altitude is also an option, but runs a risk of pilot error.

I will personally kick my planes up to high and engage the afterburn for that last 20nm of the ingress. It shortens the length of time from first exposure to launch. Then I make sure to turn around after firing and continue with afterburn until I exit the SAM envelope.

If you are looking for a way to do it without risk, then you aren't going to find one. You can do several things, or combinations of things to lessen the risk, but the risk will always be there.

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel
Yep, I wish I could get more in-game performance info on ground based SAMs and guns. Am I missing them somewhere?

They're in the HCDB database under Ships. So, in the game, pull up your Platform Display and look for the INTL (International) entries. SAM and AAA types are listed there. You can find information on their associated sensor systems; damage points; weapons details like missile range, numbers of missiles, hit probability, etc.

[SteveF2006]

I'm with Shark7! [:)] Fly in low until you're a near where the max range of the SAMs are, then kick it to afterburner, either at low or High altitude, fire HARMs, and turn quick and run at afterburner until well clear of SAMs! [:'(]
 

[Owl]

ORIGINAL: CV32

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel
Yep, I wish I could get more in-game performance info on ground based SAMs and guns. Am I missing them somewhere?

They're in the HCDB database under Ships. So, in the game, pull up your Platform Display and look for the INTL (International) entries. SAM and AAA types are listed there. You can find information on their associated sensor systems; damage points; weapons details like missile range, numbers of missiles, hit probability, etc.

Found them, but how can you tell if the missile of choice can attack very low targets or not. Earlier it was mentioned that a missile (SA-10?) couldn't so flying very low would help.

[Owl]

Grrr.  Scenario is Backyard in the Pac battleset (last one).  My "flock" of Hornets is heading in at low altitude attempting to get to launch range of their decoys and missiles.  At about the line where the Red's AA missiles show max range the hornets start blowing up.  No reason I can see - radars are on and they are not warning of incomming missiles.  No gun emplacements should be there (water!).  I am stumped as to what's killing my birds!  Kinda hard to do anything about it.

[Shark7]

Its very possible that the designer has placed a series of AAA guns along the ingress route. Also, MANPADS won't always show up on radar until too late. Just a couple of possibilities.

Another tactic, don't go straight from your base to the target, find a 'backdoor' so to speak.