AE Land and AI Issues [OUTDATED]

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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el cid again
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Always happy to recieve new info but primary input has more or less ended now unless its a showstopper which I doubt Canada will be.

The RCN bases forces/fortresses at Victoria, Vancouver and Prince Rupert include the garrisons of those cities and I chose not to create more Canadian Divs so the regular Bdes are in fact Bde Groups.

(Creating Divs out of those forces when they are primarily defensive in nature I felt was a step to far)

Broadly the 5 Regular Bde Groups cover the 2 Divs in question (and I know 15th Bde floated around between east coast and west coast)

For specifics on CD and AA, 'The Gunners of Canada Vol 2' is a good suplement to the official history. I think your choices are sound, Canada was most definitly not focused on the Pacific until late in the war. Is it simply a mater of increasing the PP needed to release a unit? I think that historicaly the only unit released for operations was 13 Bde, the rest were all tied to defence of Canada. Anyway this is alot better treatment of the OOB than is Stock. Do you know if the Navy team addrested the political issues with Cdn ships (HMCS Uganda comes to mind)? Thanks

When the commander of Alaskan Command, Brig Gen Simon Bolivar Buckner, called for reinforcements, and he did so often, the US sometimes sent some. Canada ALWAYS sent some, and if the US also did, Canada sent MORE. This was often air units - and it was in Alaska that a peculiar kind of Canadian air units needed (and got) permission to fight - seems they normally were not considered combat units (never mind having combat aircraft). Anyway - Canada certainly participated in "the thousand mile war" - and today - a Canadian general is either commander or deputy commander, Alaskan Command, depending on the date.
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Andy Mac »

Prince Rupert is a Port and had a sizable CD Battery (cannot recall exact details but I have them in the scenario)
 
Interestingly the most defended base is Victoria with 8" US CD Guns and 9.2" British Guns plus a load of 6" and 12 Pounder CD Guns.
 
I tried a novel approach to Canada which may not work and we will need to test it.
 
Broadly the main Canadian Squad type is called the Canadian Militia Section and it is STATIC.
 
It upgrades to a Can Rifle Section - 41 which is a normal mobile infantry section.
 
Now the replacement rate for Canadian 1941 Sections is low roughly enough to release a single Bde Group per year to be mobile.
 
So not only do you need to pay PP's to release them but you also need to wait for sufficient replacements of the mobile squads.
 
Now if the player chooses to rescue and rebuild either of the Canadian Bns in HK (which they can as I have not given them disband orders) then the it will take a long time to release a Canadian Bde for Aleutians.
 
Forcing ahistoric decisions to have consequences is a major part of the decsion for me.
 
Just to clarify any worries people may have about static units being to vulnerable were the Japanese to attack Canada. I have set it up such that a Canadian Reinforcement Draft is part of the reinforcements in the event of a West Coast or Canadian Invasion (not Alaska/Aleutians or north)
 
If the Japanese cross the 'magic' line with more than 40 AV then a unit with 400 Canandian 1941 'mobile' squads appears in the Canada Box - this unit has not support or other weapons its sole purpose is to be disbanded to the pool thus instantly making most of the Canadian Ground Units mobile as the Militia upgrade - once again ahistorical actions have consequences.
 
Just so you know in the core game the CW recieves similar 'timed' device replacements on 4 other occasions.
 
1. Early in 42 a unit arrives which automatically disbands the day after it arrives giving a one off injection of Dutch, Dutch Militia, Burmese, ISF, Indian and British Sections plus a few other devices - these represent the initial surge nature of trying to make units combat effective and compensate for the really low level of allied early war device replacements. i.e. the t5ransfer of obsolete equipment from East Africa, West Africa, Middle East and Iraq/Persia
 
2. Early in 43 Indian Army Grants and other obsolete AFV's are transferred to India - prior to that you will find bdes and regts using Improvised AFV's (A truck with an MG) to train in or Vickers VIB's with perhaps a sqn or 2 having Valentines or if they are very lucky General Lee's- India is very very short of real tanks just because units have a full TOE of Improvised AFV's allied players would be wise not to use them except in extremis as they will take heavy heavy casualties..
 
3. Early in 44 a final armoured transfer occurs this time more Grants and a few Shermans to start the conversion process.
 
4. The last is probably the most interesting - you will find British Sections a real struggle and British forces will need to be cannibalised - trying to keep 18th British Div up to strength in combat if not lost in Singapore will be very difficult if it commits to combat as well as 2nd British, 70th British and the various Indian Divs with British Sections.
 
The crisis resulted in mid 44 to the disbandment of several British AA Regts and a couple of base forces the men thus released form a 4th and final 'one off' injection where the British recieve an injection of replacement infantry sections.
 
Andy
 
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by witpqs »

Andy this is great. The only problem I see is the low rate at which LCU's draw replacements (something like one squad per week). I know another poster mentioned that and you are looking into it (or someone is). I've seen it consistently in CHS and RHS, but it's been quite a while since I played stock. I just wanted to support what the other poster said so you know it is not just a problem one person has run into.
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Andy Mac »

It should be much improved with the new rest/training mode where the speed of squad draw down from the pool is increased if in that mode (I think it still maxes at 1 per day per device line though)
 
Andy
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Andy Mac »

We will test it lots of units start very understrength now so if wedont see them rebuilding quickly enough (while in range of a Command HQ, with plenty of supplies and in a place with lots of bases which are the other criteria) then we will adjust - but I need to test it a little first.
 
Andy
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Andy Mac »

One thing to note for all squad type devices we are now numbering them so you will see Indian 41/ 42 / 43 and 44 squads with diffrerent firepower, loadcosts etc etc this will also make it easier to track if the reason you are not drawing reinforcements is because the pool for that particular variant of the squad is empty.
 
Andy
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Jim D Burns
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Jim D Burns »

Hi Andy,

Have you taken the 40 squads out of the baseforce units so they don't suck up all the replacements? Your whole minimalist approach goes out the window if all the squads get sucked into baseforce units that are merely trying to keep air support squads at close to maximum.

A better solution would be to give the player the ability to shut off individual lines in the TO&E. So if I want no squads to go to a baseforce unit, I simply toggle that line off, the rest of the equipment will still be drawn.

Also how is Japan being hamstrung? With such limited replacements, a non-historical strategy by Japan will be devastating to the allies since they are now hamstrung with historical limits for almost the entire game. Can Japan still build unlimited equipment items of all types?

Don’t get me wrong, I want and enjoy historical accuracy and appreciate all your efforts. But it has to be a two sided coin or Japan can simply exploit the weakness.

In the current system, Japan can build 10,000 tanks if he needs them. Granted he probably won’t need them and won’t build 10,000 tanks, but he can if he needs to, the system places no limits on anything other than raw production power. There is absolutely no historical basis for this and it is pure fantasy, but there it is.

So while Japan has a completely flexible and responsive production system, you are hog tying the allies into some pretty restrictive and non-responsive corners, with little or no ability to make up for non-historic outcomes in the game.

That’s the biggest weakness to this approach. Let’s say you’re transporting a division to India and a big chunk gets sunk. Since the replacement rates have been tailored to specifically allow x number of units to flesh out, you now can never replenish that division. Or if you do some other unit will never flesh out, because there are a finite number of squads in the replacement stream and there is no potential to make up for your battle losses.

The British didn’t run out of men and stop building new divisions when they did, but your replacement system seems to go off that premise. The British replaced losses just like anyone else, and when replacements ran low they cannibalized their AAA battalions. The US did this as well, but it was in Europe that this happened, not in the Pacific. Or if it did happen in the Pacific it was to a much lesser degree.

Losses after D-Day were far higher than planned and there were not enough replacements in the pipeline to refill depleted units, so cannibalization occurred. But eventually the replacement pipelines adjusted and caught up with the shortfalls.

By using the replacement system to try and recreate the British reluctance to launch an offensive in Burma, you’ve taken away the system that is supposed to allow players to make up their battle losses.

I like the idea of fixed militia squads used to hold units in place with timely reinforcements used to change over equipment items to release them. The problem is you chose to use infantry squads to fix them instead of some other non-essential equipment item that is less needed by the replacement engine.

Make it a special AAA gun that is immobile and upgrades to a mobile one rather than infantry squads. Then you can give the British enough troop replacements to make up for unexpected losses like they should be able to do without breaking your timed releases.

I’d say Britain should get at least a brigades worth of extra squads a year to make up for unexpected battle losses, probably closer to a division if baseforces still use infantry.

Jim
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

It should be much improved with the new rest/training mode where the speed of squad draw down from the pool is increased if in that mode (I think it still maxes at 1 per day per device line though)

Andy

Since you mentioned the rest/training mode, I have a question concerning it. Will this setting be allowed on any friendly base, or will we need to have a HQ unit present? Currently I believe you need the HQ unit in the same base to really get the replacements in a timely manner (or it seems to help).
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Gunner98 »

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Interestingly the most defended base is Victoria with 8" US CD Guns and 9.2" British Guns plus a load of 6" and 12 Pounder CD Guns.

So not only do you need to pay PP's to release them but you also need to wait for sufficient replacements of the mobile squads.

Forcing ahistoric decisions to have consequences is a major part of the decsion for me.

I believe that Victoria was more heavily armed as it, together with Fort Warden WA, were interlinked with the purpose of blocking the Straits of Juan de Fuca and therefore act as an outer defence to Vancouver, Seatle and Tacoma.

The system sounds like a slick way of re-creating the reality regarding ground troops. El Cid's point on the reinforcement of Alaska is a good point - Particularly for air units. The government at the time had great fear that committing ground troops under command of others (US or UK) would mean heavy casualties (from WW1 experiance) with little payoff internationaly - Dieppe and Hong Kong helped that view along. Thus, in the ETO they were always committed as a Corps minimum with a Cdn Commander (except the first 2 weeks in Normandy). Air units on the other hand were considered an easy win, relativly few people for a measurable combat capability which could be leveraged both at home and internationaly, and if need be they could be pulled back quickly. Alaska was another matter, defence of Alaska was seen as defence of Canada and therefore if it was possible to provide what was needed - it was sent.

I know there was massive cooperation building the Alaska Highway, which, if there was a way to build roads and RR etc, would be something worth adding - maybe in WiTP 2.
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by HMS Resolution »

I was looking through Alanbrooke's diaries last night, and he indicates that while Freyberg and the NZ division were desired for the invasion of Japan, he did not feel Freyberg was qualified to command the corps and that he had a conversation with Freyberg where Freyberg had suggested himself as a potential candidate. Alanbrooke doesn't seem to have been very impressed by him.
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by VSWG »

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

If the Japanese cross the 'magic' line with more than 40 AV then a unit with 400 Canandian 1941 'mobile' squads appears in the Canada Box - this unit has not support or other weapons its sole purpose is to be disbanded to the pool thus instantly making most of the Canadian Ground Units mobile as the Militia upgrade - once again ahistorical actions have consequences.

Just so you know in the core game the CW recieves similar 'timed' device replacements on 4 other occasions.
Brilliant!! [&o]

It would be awesome if a Japanese invasion of India or Oz would trigger a similar event.
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by VSWG »

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

LCUs can have "personalized" TO&Es, which can upgrade multiple times. For example, each Marine Corps Defense Bn starts with a different 'fit" of CD guns . . . and in 1944 most of the Defense Bns convert to AAA Bns.
Will be be able to see what a unit will look like after their next "upgrade" without opening the editor?
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by BigJ62 »

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

LCUs can have "personalized" TO&Es, which can upgrade multiple times. For example, each Marine Corps Defense Bn starts with a different 'fit" of CD guns . . . and in 1944 most of the Defense Bns convert to AAA Bns.
Will be be able to see what a unit will look like after their next "upgrade" without opening the editor?

Yes, units that have upgradable TO&Es can be viewed in the same manner as your current TO&E.
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Andy Mac »

Yes all base forces now have a company sized garrison (12 Squads) rather than 40 and British Forces use either ISF forces or later in the war RAF Regt Rifle Sections for this garrison.

Line by line TOE was considered but is deemed out of scope and probably not even on the list for the patch

Japan is hamstrung by a much more realistic carrying capacity, non neutered allied subs and other new economy stuff but I agree its not perfect but this aspect shold be better.

Remember TOE changes during the war forcing Japanese units to change will suck in more production as well.

OK let me explain the British Sections in detail how I have modelled them because it is an important distinction

There are 4 types of squads that appear in British Formations

British 1941 12 per month
British 1943 20 per month
Chindit 5 per month (Ghurka and British but not WA)
Commando/Para 5 per month (shared with other CW nations)
RAF Regt 3 per month

In addition the British get one off injections of the following

54 1941 Sections in Feb 41
328 1941 Sections in October 41 (this is from 70th Div conversion to Chindit only some of these should be allowed which is why the 1941 rate is only 12 not 20)
300 1943 Section in June 44 (Converted AA Gunners)

In addition almost all British Division or Bdes that arrive in theatre arrive at 100% (or for the few that don't 90%)

Indian Divisions from the Middle East typically have 3 Brit Bns but these also arrive at full strenght

Now the place where British Sections are needed is in bringing Indian Divs up to strength about 2/3 of at start Indian Army formations need British troops typically they have 2/3 of the British sections they need.

(p.s. British replacements were short in the far east from 42 onwards not just 44 there was a reason for the Indianisation of the Indian Army and it was that shipping didnt exist to keep two fronts operational until the Med opened and after that they didnt exist the manpower shoretage was not just a timing issue it was a real issue as prime infantrymen ran short (partly because of the siphoning effect of special forces that I try to show above)

The Indian replacement rate is not great in 42 either as they are also keeping 2 fronts going but enough replacements are available to allow a limited late 42 offensive or a build up i.e. what actually occured in Arakan.

2nd British Div arrives with 43 Sections so will not need to upgrade
5th British Withdraws
70th British Disbands
36th British arrives from the ME over time and excess thrwon off by the Indianisation of the Indian Army will allow replacements for it
18th British is destroyed.

56th British only appears if India north of Madras is incaded
44th British only appears if Australia south of Brisbane is invaded

In 43 all Indian TOE forces get an upgrade reducing by 1 Bn the British component of the Divs i.e. 1 Bde goes totally Indian Army
In 44 all Indian Divs (bar 1 I think) go to a full Indian TOE.

British Sections thrown off by this process RETURN to the pool and may be used to keep other forces up to strength they are not lost.

My worry isnt that I have to few British Sections its that I may have allowed to many. BUT the fact is Jim if you lose a large chunk of British Div at sea the replacement do not and did not exist to replace them easily so don't do it.

The fixed static Infantry squads only apply to Canada - depending on where we get to on invasion coding (probably in the patch) India will have static Peshawar, Punjab and Waziristan Divs in the North if the invasion coding goes in two of these will move to invasion only forces.

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Hi Andy,

Have you taken the 40 squads out of the baseforce units so they don't suck up all the replacements? Your whole minimalist approach goes out the window if all the squads get sucked into baseforce units that are merely trying to keep air support squads at close to maximum.

A better solution would be to give the player the ability to shut off individual lines in the TO&E. So if I want no squads to go to a baseforce unit, I simply toggle that line off, the rest of the equipment will still be drawn.

Also how is Japan being hamstrung? With such limited replacements, a non-historical strategy by Japan will be devastating to the allies since they are now hamstrung with historical limits for almost the entire game. Can Japan still build unlimited equipment items of all types?

Don’t get me wrong, I want and enjoy historical accuracy and appreciate all your efforts. But it has to be a two sided coin or Japan can simply exploit the weakness.

In the current system, Japan can build 10,000 tanks if he needs them. Granted he probably won’t need them and won’t build 10,000 tanks, but he can if he needs to, the system places no limits on anything other than raw production power. There is absolutely no historical basis for this and it is pure fantasy, but there it is.

So while Japan has a completely flexible and responsive production system, you are hog tying the allies into some pretty restrictive and non-responsive corners, with little or no ability to make up for non-historic outcomes in the game.

That’s the biggest weakness to this approach. Let’s say you’re transporting a division to India and a big chunk gets sunk. Since the replacement rates have been tailored to specifically allow x number of units to flesh out, you now can never replenish that division. Or if you do some other unit will never flesh out, because there are a finite number of squads in the replacement stream and there is no potential to make up for your battle losses.

The British didn’t run out of men and stop building new divisions when they did, but your replacement system seems to go off that premise. The British replaced losses just like anyone else, and when replacements ran low they cannibalized their AAA battalions. The US did this as well, but it was in Europe that this happened, not in the Pacific. Or if it did happen in the Pacific it was to a much lesser degree.

Losses after D-Day were far higher than planned and there were not enough replacements in the pipeline to refill depleted units, so cannibalization occurred. But eventually the replacement pipelines adjusted and caught up with the shortfalls.

By using the replacement system to try and recreate the British reluctance to launch an offensive in Burma, you’ve taken away the system that is supposed to allow players to make up their battle losses.

I like the idea of fixed militia squads used to hold units in place with timely reinforcements used to change over equipment items to release them. The problem is you chose to use infantry squads to fix them instead of some other non-essential equipment item that is less needed by the replacement engine.

Make it a special AAA gun that is immobile and upgrades to a mobile one rather than infantry squads. Then you can give the British enough troop replacements to make up for unexpected losses like they should be able to do without breaking your timed releases.

I’d say Britain should get at least a brigades worth of extra squads a year to make up for unexpected battle losses, probably closer to a division if baseforces still use infantry.

Jim
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Andy Mac »

Any friendly base but replacements will still need to meet the other normal criteria.

i.e. it will help repair disabled sections, it will help reduce fatigue and disruption but without supply and an HQ it does not speed up replacements
ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

It should be much improved with the new rest/training mode where the speed of squad draw down from the pool is increased if in that mode (I think it still maxes at 1 per day per device line though)

Andy

Since you mentioned the rest/training mode, I have a question concerning it. Will this setting be allowed on any friendly base, or will we need to have a HQ unit present? Currently I believe you need the HQ unit in the same base to really get the replacements in a timely manner (or it seems to help).
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Andy Mac »

Agreed but he was a choice acceptable to the other CW nations and he was a dammed fine Divisional commander.

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

I was looking through Alanbrooke's diaries last night, and he indicates that while Freyberg and the NZ division were desired for the invasion of Japan, he did not feel Freyberg was qualified to command the corps and that he had a conversation with Freyberg where Freyberg had suggested himself as a potential candidate. Alanbrooke doesn't seem to have been very impressed by him.
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Andy Mac »

The plan is this will be in and it will be similar and it will be a designated range in the editor so if you dont want to play with it just delete it !!!!

I have 3 sets I want in but probably not until a patch

1. West Coast
2. Australia South of a line running 1 hex below Brisbane so north east and west coasts are vulnerable but south coast has consequences
3. NZ anywhere on NZ will trigger a small response
4. India north of line running 1 hex below Delhi - so again the South is vulnerable and so is ceylon

Broadly I dont want to make this like the old West Coast line where even a limited attack is a waste of time the Japanese must be able to achieve something which is why I chose those lines.

BUT it is unlikely this will make the release version and will probably be a patch (although we are building the database to accomodate it)
ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

If the Japanese cross the 'magic' line with more than 40 AV then a unit with 400 Canandian 1941 'mobile' squads appears in the Canada Box - this unit has not support or other weapons its sole purpose is to be disbanded to the pool thus instantly making most of the Canadian Ground Units mobile as the Militia upgrade - once again ahistorical actions have consequences.

Just so you know in the core game the CW recieves similar 'timed' device replacements on 4 other occasions.
Brilliant!! [&o]

It would be awesome if a Japanese invasion of India or Oz would trigger a similar event.
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by VSWG »

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

56th British only appears if India north of Madras is incaded
44th British only appears if Australia south of Brisbane is invaded
[X(][X(][X(]

[&o][&o][&o]

Will invasions of India and Oz trigger other reinforcements (squadrons, ships), too?

EDIT: Nevermind, crosspost. THANKS, Andy Mac! [:)]
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Andy Mac »

The exact forces that will be released are pure judgement on my part
 
As things stand now
 
India gets a Corps HQ (XXI Corps), 56th British Div (that has to leave in 43 for Italy if it appears), 6th Indian Div and 8th Indian Div both in the ME at this time as well as 251st Armoured Bde and an AA Bde
 
Australia gets 44th British Div (en route round the cape at this time arrives in Capetown), 9th Aus Div accelerated at Aden, 2nd Para Bde and an AA Bde (I may also allow a SA Motorised Bde but I am mulling the last one over)
 
NZ gets 2nd NZ Div, 32nd Army Tank Bde an AA Bde (all Aden), 12th NZ Bde (in NZ) plus possibly the Militia mounted rifle regts (6 of them in NZ) if I decide not just to have them on map.
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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread

Post by Andy Mac »

Oh and probably a reinforcement draft which may be disbanded to provide replacements but setting this up so the AI will use it is difficult
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