Anyone playing both? HC and H3?

[MarkShot]

{Besides the question below are some personal observations and opinions. Don't anyone get too bent out of shape by what I might say as these are my perceptions and you may disagree ... and I may be an idiot ... but as any idiot I am entitled to have a point of view.}

I was just curious if anyone is playing H3 concurrent with HCCE? There are, in fact, quite a few common scenarios.

I first got H3 ANW and 363; HCCE was just a vague promise for the future. I tinkered with 363 quite a bit. (I had put ANW on the side to wait for a number of bugs to get resolved.) However, ultimately, I was intimidated by 363 due to the UI and all the newness of naval warfare and hundreds of platforms, sensors, and weapons that were meaningless to me.

With HCCE, I found it easier to jump in an play. The UI didn't require me to have the manual open to the appropriate page for each function I wanted to do. (Also, I probably found HCCE more intuitive having already done tutorials for ANW.) So, at this point, I feel that H3 has become more approachable and therefore playable than my first exposure to it. I am considering playing both concurrently.

Playing HCCE this week made me realize something about Harpoon. Originally, I thought this game would, being operational, be like HTTR/COTA on water and require little micro-management. I now feel quite the opposite, since despite having missions and little pop ups to give orders, the results are so much better when I pilot planes personally or subs or whatever. So, I realized that Harpoon may be about naval operations, but game play would be about tactical involvement/micro-management. Finally, yesterday I was playing a scenario in the GIUK, where I was ending up with at times three concurrent sub contacts to prosecute simultaneously. Very hard to do with HCCE ... to micro-manage the search path of planes/helos and the rapid dropping of buoys. Of course, I would say being personally involved increases the chance of a sinking by a factor of 4X.

In a case like above, I see H3 making life quite a bit easier. With HCCE, I either need to be bouncing between my group and unit windows and between 3 map areas to conduct three simultaneous hunts very rapidly. Or simply leave the AI to prosecute the larger AOUs while I try to quickly resolve and kill off the sub in the tightest AOU manually so that I can move on to the next. With H3, I could open 3 tracking windows on each contact temporarily. Thus, allowing me to manage each at the same time. Also, I think I might have less window jumping too. Although H3 also makes a distinction between groups and units, there are no window distinctions. Thus, my command would not be split across two windows. (In HCCE, being forced to command via the group window while watching the details in the unit window.) A single H3 window would allow full control of each local ASW hunt.

So, in a game, where time and hands on control make the difference, I now see some of the advantages in H3 interface; despite the immediate ease and simplicity of HCCE. Thus, I suspect I want to be playing both games.

Finally, I play Sub Command and Dangerous Waters and I see both H3 and HC offering one day a huge collection of ideas for potential scenario ideas for both of these tactical games.

What about you?

Thanks.

[MarkShot]

For those who are have not tried H3, here is an example of what three tactical windows opened on separate areas of the map might look like. Each would allow full control of units/group within them.

Since the screenshot is large, I have not embedded it.

[Anonymous]

Hello,

yes, I am one of those playing both versions. I write scenarios for both of them, too. Your description of the differences is very interesting. I do not compare HCE and H3/ANW in the way that one is superior to the other. I love both of them and choosing one for playing or scenario writing primarily depends on my mood and time window. [8D]

Ralf

[MarkShot]

Well, I hope no one understood that I was suggesting that one game is superior to the other.

However, as reasonable people, it is possible to compare the two, and each has particular areas of strength and weakness. My example in this thread showed that concurrent micro-management is perhaps somewhat easier with H3 by virtue of being able to tailor multiple windows and not needing two layers of windows to manage activities.

The rivalries between the H3-only faction and the HC-only faction is a very sad thing, in my opinion. Besides generally discouraging new customers and driving people away ... it makes impossible some mature and interesting discussions. Over the past two months, there have been numerous people interested in buy one of the games or both asking the simple question "What's the difference?". Rarely, do they receive an answer, since that is such an explosive issue that those who might be able to discuss the topic are afraid to enter such waters. What a shame. Because a person who asks "what's the difference" is either considering buying one or the other or owns one and is considering the other. Timely and considered responses should more than likely result in a larger customer base instead of propagation of ancient rivalries.

[john688]

Can someone explain what the real show stopping bugs in H3.80 ANW are, Ive seen the list but its just to long

John,

[roeddog]

Well, I hope no one understood that I was suggesting that one game is superior to the other

Mark, I didn't take it that way, it seemed like an honest comparison/critique of the two games.

However, as reasonable people, it is possible to compare the two

The key word here being "reasonable"...

The rivalries between the H3-only faction and the HC-only faction is a very sad thing

It certainly is sad. How many potential new pooners have we lost because of the irrational discussions that have taken place here and on other boards for HarpoonANW vs. HarpoonCE?

Now, to answer your question. I play both, but prefer ANW. (Notice I said prefer ANW, and didn't say ANW is better[:)]). My feelings on the two are simple. I like the complexity, and micromanagement of ANW over against the simplified interface of HCE. HCE feels like a game to me, whereas ANW feels like a simulation. They are both good games. I woke up around 0400 this morning and played a quick scen in HCE and had fun. I wasn't in the mood to play/think that hard about ANW.

Both games are about naval warfare, both share many if not most of the same scenarios, and both accomplish the same tasks albeit in different ways. If you're familiar with the Avalon Hill board game(s) Squad Leader/Advanced Squad Leader its the same situation. They were almost identical systems; they used the same card board counters the same maps the same mechanics for fire resolution etc. ASL was more indepth and SL was a simpler game. Both are great games and are still played by many people. (Granted ASL introduced many new features into the game system).

HarpoonANW / CE use the same world, same platforms, weapons and strategies but in what I think are different mechanics.

If one likes ANW but not CE, or the other way around, say so and the reason(s) why you like your favorite, but there is absolutely no reason to trash the one you don't like it just shows your smallness.

Jeff

the use of "you" and "your" is generic and not pointing a finger at a specific person[:-]

[Anonymous]

Hello Mark,

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Well, I hope no one understood that I was suggesting that one game is superior to the other.

However, as reasonable people, it is possible to compare the two, and each has particular areas of strength and weakness. My example in this thread showed that concurrent micro-management is perhaps somewhat easier with H3 by virtue of being able to tailor multiple windows and not needing two layers of windows to manage activities.

The rivalries between the H3-only faction and the HC-only faction is a very sad thing, in my opinion. Besides generally discouraging new customers and driving people away ... it makes impossible some mature and interesting discussions. Over the past two months, there have been numerous people interested in buy one of the games or both asking the simple question "What's the difference?". Rarely, do they receive an answer, since that is such an explosive issue that those who might be able to discuss the topic are afraid to enter such waters. What a shame. Because a person who asks "what's the difference" is either considering buying one or the other or owns one and is considering the other. Timely and considered responses should more than likely result in a larger customer base instead of propagation of ancient rivalries.

I didn´t feel offended at all- I think I am reasonable [:)]. Most of the pooners are, really. [:)] Both games are great and I can recommend them both.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: john688
Can someone explain what the real show stopping bugs in H3.80 ANW are, Ive seen the list but its just to long

"Show stopping?" None.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[john688]

This one http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67385

H3 sounds great but I thought I'd hold out until 3.90 appears.

John,

[Vincenzo_Beretta]

ORIGINAL: roeddog
It certainly is sad. How many potential new pooners have we lost because of the irrational discussions that have taken place here and on other boards for HarpoonANW vs. HarpoonCE?

The debates were almost never about HarpoonANW vs. HarpoonCE. Actually, it is even difficult to understand what they were about in the first place - beyond "either you agree with us or you are the enemy"

Thinking about it, it is better to shut up, before someone comes here to "explain" [;)]

[mack2]

Inter-service rivalry? Never!

The biggest "debates" go on between certain groups in the H3/ANW community, at least from my limited viewpoint.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[TonyE]

Agreed,careful everyone, these comparison threads, however innocent in intent have me very nervous.  There are other ways to examine the games than comparatively.
 
 

[MarkShot]

That's what I meant before ... this community is so uptight and poisoned with any discussion of the two games. I don't know why it should be thus.

I play Sub Command and Dangerous Waters. If you neglect the fact that Dangerous Waters has some additional surface/air platforms, then you have on the surface two games that are extremely similar. It is simple and easy to go over to www.subsim.com and post in either game's forum questions/issues/comparisons between the too. One can do that without fear of what dangers lurk. One can simply write without rereading one's post four times to see if every possible exploitation as a platform for attack has been carefully editted out. One can easily use words like "better" or "worse". In the end, you will get four or five answers with some prefering DW and some SC and "they all lived happily ever after". There is something fundamentally wrong with this community and its deep seated and ancient animosities. There I have said it.

If I have called attention to this nonsense again (since, personally, all I want to do is play games HC and H3), then feel free to delete my entire thread. Thanks.

[john688]

Wow, what a hostile forum!

MarkShot said "I had put ANW on the side to wait for a number of bugs to get resolved."

So I innocently asked about the severity of the bugs.

"If you want to discuss issues with H3ANW then please contact me privately as this forum is for Classic" ... so is MarkShot banned from discussing H3ANW too?

[MarkShot]

Ah, just delete my thread.

It's all my fault. I casually make references to HCCE in the ANW forum and ANW in the HCCE forum. You would think given that both are published by Matrix and developed by AGSI that this would be acceptable.

However, I give my word of honor to not mention either game outside of its respective forum. Please don't ban me. It's going to look bad for customer relations to ban a well recognized team member of two companies which Matrix does business with, Panther Games and AGE Studio, from the forums. Thank you.

[TonyE]

Nobody is getting banned for these posts, we're just amazingly twitchy about comparisons between the two games because a war of passions inevitably erupts.  This is just a bit of a pre-emptive effort to delay that inevitable display of Harpoon passion.
 
There are many people willing to take on those comparison/history chats in less public places (IRC chat is a great and popular place for that if you want to get multiple opinions quickly).

[MarkShot]

I guess I was being overly dramatic. Well, I'll keep my nose clean from now on. Time to make my 2008 resolutions early. Thanks.

PS: I want to say thank you publicly to yourself and others who kept this game alive and brought both families (oops - I did it again) into the modern age that they can be run on XP and Vista. It would be shame if a game/simulation with such a long distinguished heritage was lost to nostaglia buffs and a new generation of gamers. Especially, since there is nothing in its class. Games such as Harpoon inspire other game designers, history buffs, and educate the general public about what our respective navies actual do with our tax dollars. Thank you.

[JRyan]

ORIGINAL: TonyE
Nobody is getting banned for these posts

Good, I didn't think that would happen.......not at all.

ORIGINAL: TonyE
This is just a bit of a pre-emptive effort to delay that inevitable display of Harpoon passion.

So I guess this is not the place to express my love for Fleet Command? [X(]


I like many others love both games but do a have a favorite between them, back in 05 when the push for both was hot and heavy, I said I would buy both, and I did. I will play both....actually since I started with HC, this last week or so has been neat because of the noticeable changes that have been made. This buy far is the best release for the Harpoon "Classic" series hands down.