scuttle fleet in blockade box

[Pans]

Just seen this - not sure if its a bug or I only missing the naval combat.

I am playing GB and was at war with Denmark. While my land forces breach succesfully the walls of Copenhagen I am in the blockade box with the IV Fleet (13 heavy ships) of Copenhagen while the complete fleet of Denmark (13 heavy and 6 light ships) lay in the port of Copenhagen.
Just as I take over Denmark as conquered I only got the message that my fleet was scuttled. There wasen´t any combat - or at least I didn´t get any infos on that.
I have set the comand to my fleet to intercept any possible.

Any ideas on this?

[MarshallEllis]

The Danish are being forced to evac the port because you took Copenhagen. This should be an auto sea battle with the result of the Danish being scuttled because they lost the sea battle. We could do a better job of providing some type of summary here.
 
 

[Jimmer]

Marshall is correct (duh!) But, I wanted to point out that this event IS documented in the rules. I forget where, but it clearly says there will be an "automatic" battle. It clarifies that said battle occurs without intervention (i.e. you don't get a report of it).
 
I also agree with Marshall that this needs to be corrected, but I think it's higher priority to fix the bugs than to change the rules.

[Pans]

I´ve got that so far.
But ... at least in this case the English fleet (13 heavy) had to be totaly destroyed by the Danish 13 hvy and 6 light ships because the counter of my IV Fleet was scuttled and gone??
Also do I in that case not have to loose 1 VP for a lost sea battle - what wasn´t the fact?

[delatbabel]

Actually, according to the rules there is not an automatic battle. The fleet in port can choose either to fight the battle, or to scuttle without fighting.

There is an important strategic consideration here. If there are, say, 2 fleets in port and a bigger two sitting outside in the BB, it is better to scuttle than to fight. That way you lose 2PP for scuttling, and the victor gains nothing. If you go out to fight, and lose, then you lose 2PP for losing the battle, the victor gains 2PP for winning the battle, and then the loser loses another 2PP for having to scuttle the fleets anyway after the battle (provided one or both aren't destroyed in the battle).

In the board game, being forced out of port with (say) Nelson and 75 ships waiting for you in the BB is a good enough reason to scuttle rather than fight. Remember that the fleet in the blockade box automatically gets the wind gauge, so with a large enough fleet sitting waiting for you you're probably dead without getting a shot off anyway.

The fleet in port should always be given the option to scuttle without fighting -- is this what has happened (in which case I would guess the AI correctly chose to scuttle rather than fight) or are you saying that the GB fleet was scuttled (which would be a bug)?

[Pans]

actualy in the moment I conquered Denmark the Danish corps and fleet counter were removed which is correct. But also the IV British Fleet were scuttled which I think is a bug - or at least GB lost all 13 ships in battle which I think is nearly unimpossible.

[ndrose]

I think this is indeed a bug. As I posted in another thread tm.asp?m=1644216 , I saw a similar situation (both sides AI), in which the French fleet was scuttled and all of the blockading fleets (British and Spanish, about a dozen fleets in all) disappeared. A very good result...for the Russians.

Nathan Rose

[MarshallEllis]

Hey guys:
 
They may have flew to a port??? Dbl-check this or see if the counters are back in the counter pool. Either way, it could be handled better.
 
 
 
 

[ndrose]

Here's another example of it. In this game, playing Britain, I besiege Amsterdam, where the Dutch fleet is blockaded by the Russians. (I had my fleet blockading it too, but I moved them in case this bug should destroy them.)

I get a breach, move in, and the report says the Russians win the combat and the Dutch fleet is scuttled. But the Russian fleet is also gone. (I confirm this by looking at my options for peace conditions if I were at war with Russia. Their heavy fleets aren't available to remove.)

Earlier in the game, I had scuttled the French fleet at Brest, using my own fleet to blockade, and it didn't cause a problem. The one other time I saw this was also a case of mixed powers, so maybe that has something to do with it--although that doesn't sound like it was the case in what Pans describes.

I've attached the land combat autosave. If Amsterdam is breached, and you move into the city, maybe you can replicate it.

Nathan Rose

[Monadman]

ORIGINAL: ndrose

Here's another example of it. In this game, playing Britain, I besiege Amsterdam, where the Dutch fleet is blockaded by the Russians. (I had my fleet blockading it too, but I moved them in case this bug should destroy them.)

I get a breach, move in, and the report says the Russians win the combat and the Dutch fleet is scuttled. But the Russian fleet is also gone. (I confirm this by looking at my options for peace conditions if I were at war with Russia. Their heavy fleets aren't available to remove.)

Earlier in the game, I had scuttled the French fleet at Brest, using my own fleet to blockade, and it didn't cause a problem. The one other time I saw this was also a case of mixed powers, so maybe that has something to do with it--although that doesn't sound like it was the case in what Pans describes.

I've attached the land combat autosave. If Amsterdam is breached, and you move into the city, maybe you can replicate it.

Nathan Rose

Nathan,

I looked at your file and observed the bug. When Britain captures Amsterdam, not only must the Dutch fleets vacate the port but the Russian must also vacate the blockade box. Unfortunately, the program took them off the map instead of bumping them out to sea.

Thanks again

Richard