RIDERS ON THE STORM-THANK YOU

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
However i've lost nearly 80 ships during these days near Karachi...which is quite a lot!!

Never fear G.H., I tried to add them up once but never finished the count. Suffice it to say the allies probably have well over 5,000 AK's in CHS, so your losses will be made up soon enough. Whether or not you can make them up before Karachi runs out of supply though, I don't know.

You should be able to run some fast transport missions in with your DD’s and CL’s if you hug the north map edge and keep the number of ships in each task force very small so Japanese search air has a hard time spotting them. Of course KB has to leave the theatre first before you can try a few of these runs to see how effective Japanese anti-shipping is in the Arabian Sea waters. My guess is he won't leave many naval bombers in India once the Marshal op gets underway.

Your Tankers are much rarer than the AK’s though, so stuff them in port at Aden and leave them there until you’ve re-opened the shipping lanes later in the war and made the journey to Karachi risk free again.

Jim

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
However i've lost nearly 80 ships during these days near Karachi...which is quite a lot!!

Never fear G.H., I tried to add them up once but never finished the count. Suffice it to say the allies probably have well over 5,000 AK's in CHS, so your losses will be made up soon enough. Whether or not you can make them up before Karachi runs out of supply though, I don't know.

You should be able to run some fast transport missions in with your DD’s and CL’s if you hug the north map edge and keep the number of ships in each task force very small so Japanese search air has a hard time spotting them. Of course KB has to leave the theatre first before you can try a few of these runs to see how effective Japanese anti-shipping is in the Arabian Sea waters. My guess is he won't leave many naval bombers in India once the Marshal op gets underway.

Your Tankers are much rarer than the AK’s though, so stuff them in port at Aden and leave them there until you’ve re-opened the shipping lanes later in the war and made the journey to Karachi risk free again.

Jim

Thx Jim. Yes, i do not fear the lack of ships right now. The real question now is how will he react to the invasion of the Marshalls. Will he move back his Combined fleet? He badly needs his BBs if he wants to reduce Karachi and hope to conquer it...but doing that who's gonna stop the american fleetin the pacific????
I think he can master nearly 250 Betties right now. But he cannot place them all in India as you said. But at the same time he cannot hope to face my invasions without his best air assets....

Anyway, i've already formed at Aden few single ship-TFs that will try to run to Karachi to bring there supplies and men...The fast transport TFs are a good idea...we just have to see what he does with the KB....

[Gen.Hoepner]

So guys, i need your feedback now.
Let's try to think i'll be able to master 2000 AVs at Karachi for the final stand.
Let's imagine my OOB for it will be based upon the 7th AIF Division and the 18th UK divisions.
Let's say i'll have 3 HQs there, along with 5 forts and the urban hex.
How much will it be possible to hold? With 400,000 supplies...
Do you think will be worth to DEFEND Malir or not?

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
However i've lost nearly 80 ships during these days near Karachi...which is quite a lot!!

Never fear G.H., I tried to add them up once but never finished the count. Suffice it to say the allies probably have well over 5,000 AK's in CHS...

You're a bit off. CHS has 51 different Allied AK classes with 2009 ships (without Soviet freighters). The total hauling capacity of 8.505.900 tons.

... and no, I didn't count them manually. [;)]

[Gen.Hoepner]

192 between AKs and APs Lost..... luckly my shipping capabilities in the pacific are completely intact.
27 TKs/AOs Lost
23 Subs
30 MSW/MLs
....

[Yava]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Ah, forgot to say...Trollelite says he has to do some homeworks...so no turns untill friday...[:(]
Will have plenty of time for strategical thoughts[:'(]

I still don't see the point in his strategy so far, loosing so many planes with the most experienced pilots at this point of the war and in such a place is a waste.

He did not manage to sink anything of importance and the RAF is still in the air so to say. Maybe he wants to eleminate the Brits to take care of China and do not really take care of the outer Pacific perimiter?? Hust bunker himself around the continent??

If so slow him down and make him bleed as long as possible.

It would be great if he moved the Combined Fleet to the Marshalls, it shall give you some time and rest in the Karachi region, at least from the sea, and meanwhile he shall [be dependant only on Army pilots which are probably a bit tired and lower on morale from what I read.

I would try to strenghten and hold Karachi to tie his forces over there.. but that is your plan already[:D]

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Yava

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Ah, forgot to say...Trollelite says he has to do some homeworks...so no turns untill friday...[:(]
Will have plenty of time for strategical thoughts[:'(]

I still don't see the point in his strategy so far, loosing so many planes with the most experienced pilots at this point of the war and in such a place is a waste.

He did not manage to sink anything of importance and the RAF is still in the air so to say. Maybe he wants to eleminate the Brits to take care of China and do not really take care of the outer Pacific perimiter?? Hust bunker himself around the continent??

If so slow him down and make him bleed as long as possible.

It would be great if he moved the Combined Fleet to the Marshalls, it shall give you some time and rest in the Karachi region, at least from the sea, and meanwhile he shall [be dependant only on Army pilots which are probably a bit tired and lower on morale from what I read.

I would try to strenghten and hold Karachi to tie his forces over there.. but that is your plan already[:D]

I really do not see how he can send now the combined fleet to the Marshalls...it will take him 4 weeks, at least, using tons of precious fuel and when he'll arrive he'll already find enemy bases full of planes...
No, i really think he's going for the final run in India, once he committed....i wouldn't do anything else at this point...

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: VSWG
CHS has 51 different Allied AK classes with 2009 ships (without Soviet freighters). The total hauling capacity of 8.505.900 tons.

Well losing 192 ships is nearly 10% of his AK fleet for the entire war then, that’s a lot worse than I thought since most of his AK's don't arrive till much later. 2000 AK ships seems a bit low for the entire game, perhaps they should make allied AK's respawnable with a 6 month respawn delay. At least the late war classes that come online in 1943 should be I think.

Jim

[Gen.Hoepner]

However i still have 70 AP/AKs at Aden...so i'm still able to bring to Karachi what i need if the Channell gets open...

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: VSWG
CHS has 51 different Allied AK classes with 2009 ships (without Soviet freighters). The total hauling capacity of 8.505.900 tons.

Well losing 192 ships is nearly 10% of his AK fleet for the entire war then, that’s a lot worse than I thought since most of his AK's don't arrive till much later. 2000 AK ships seems a bit low for the entire game, perhaps they should make allied AK's respawnable with a 6 month respawn delay. At least the late war classes that come online in 1943 should be I think.

Jim

It's really nothing to worry about.

Assuming an Allied player loses not a single AK in a CHS game, he would have 1.870.710 tons of AK capacity at the end of 1941.

In 1942, he receives 1.182.190 additional tons of AK capacity.
In 1943 another 1.866.160 tons.
1944: +1.964.200
1945: +1.622.730

You can see that the Allied player receives the capacity of his AK fleet in 1941 every year.

Also, keep in mind that many of the AKs Gen. Hoepner has lost so far those small ships that are scattered in the DEI and the Philippines. The average AKs he'll receive (Large AK (Allies), Large AK (US), Liberty class,...) will be a lot larger than the average AK in 1941.

AK/AP losses shouldn't be measured in number of ships, but in capacity - especially in CHS, where all those small transport classes will make your situation look worse than it really is.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: VSWG
CHS has 51 different Allied AK classes with 2009 ships (without Soviet freighters). The total hauling capacity of 8.505.900 tons.

Well losing 192 ships is nearly 10% of his AK fleet for the entire war then, that’s a lot worse than I thought since most of his AK's don't arrive till much later. 2000 AK ships seems a bit low for the entire game, perhaps they should make allied AK's respawnable with a 6 month respawn delay. At least the late war classes that come online in 1943 should be I think.

Jim

It's really nothing to worry about.

Assuming an Allied player loses not a single AK in a CHS game, he would have 1.870.710 tons of AK capacity at the end of 1941.

In 1942, he receives 1.182.190 additional tons of AK capacity.
In 1943 another 1.866.160 tons.
1944: +1.964.200
1945: +1.622.730

You can see that the Allied player receives the capacity of his AK fleet in 1941 every year.

Also, keep in mind that many of the AKs Gen. Hoepner has lost so far those small ships that are scattered in the DEI and the Philippines. The average AKs he'll receive (Large AK (Allies), Large AK (US), Liberty class,...) will be a lot larger than the average AK in 1941

That's sounds pretty interesting...thx[;)]

Let's see now how many ships i will lose in the Marshalls...i expect to lose at least 2 BBs , few DDs and maybe the 10% of my AKs/APs.... hope to save my CVs tough

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

However i still have 70 AP/AKs at Aden...so i'm still able to bring to Karachi what i need if the Channell gets open...

That's probably too much. In 1942 you'll receive 60 AKs in Aden alone. My advice would be to evacuate some large and slow AKs to the US (if you still can), and keep the small and fast AKs for your supply runs to Karachi.

BTW, I wouldn't try to defend Malir, too. Retreat everything into Karachi, otherwise he will split your forces.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: VSWG
In 1942, he receives 1.182.190 additional tons of AK capacity.
In 1943 another 1.866.160 tons.
1944: +1.964.200
1945: +1.622.730

Thanks for the fascinating insights VSWG, I’ve posted to the AE naval thread about possibly making some of the larger class AK’s respawnable. Do you have a similar count for Japan’s AK fleet and its lift capacity in CHS?

Those 60 AK’s he gets over 1942 at Aden can easily be lost in just a few raids in WitP, I think the allies need the ability to maintain a minimum lift capacity for the end of the war. By making some of the AK’s respawnable, you guarantee that a very successful first few years by Japan doesn’t cripple the allies ability in 44 onwards to keep supplies flowing to the front.

After all, if it takes 2 month to get there, it takes another 2 months to get back, so assuming you have a lift capacity of only 4 mil tons in 1944, that’s a grand total of 12 mil to run the entire war in the Pacific. The allies can/will burn through a lot more than 12 mil tons a year by 44. And a lot of the places you need to supply by 44 are a lot further than 2 months out.

Jim

[Elladan]

With 70 AK/AP in Aden and additional 60 in 1942 you have more than enough for your needs in Indian Ocean area. Pacific fleet is intact, so I don't see a reason to worry.
Malir is not worth defending at this stage, it's clear terrain, easy to flank, so you will lose whatever you put there rather quickly. Better to bunker in Karachi. With 2000 AV, some of them elite, you can expect to hold at least until your supplies dry. For this matter it's more important to be able to constantly bring even small amounts than to have a big stockpile, which you will find shrinks very quickly when he begins the siege. Even if he could bring enough force there, for which he would need some troops from China methinks, it will take long months. And he will have to keep most of his army/fleet/air there to prevent any relief attempts. A lot of opportunities for you there.
How many subs do you have in India area and how many could you send there in short time? They could prove to be invaluable as blockade runners for Karachi.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Elladan
With 2000 AV, some of them elite, you can expect to hold at least until your supplies dry.

Karachi produces 6,000 supplies a month even if Japan occupies the hex, so I doubt it'll fall even if supplies go into the red. Japan simply won't be able to attack often enough to get supplies to totally dry up. And as seen in the second to last attack at Manila in my AAR, even with just 900 supplies at the base and no supply in the units themselves, my units still fought well. It wasn’t until supplies were at zero that Manila finally fell.

He will need to try and run the blockade to get a surplus of supplies at Karachi once in a while so disablements can be repaired to keep his units in fighting trim. But I don’t think it’s worth sending all his subs, they can do a lot more damage interdicting Japanese supply convoys to India.

Japan will need a lot of supplies to keep offensive ops going in India over an extended period, and there are several choke points these convoys need to run through. Clog those choke points with subs and they should see good hunting.

Jim

[Elladan]

Karachi produces 6,000 supplies a month

I'm not familiar with this scenario but in this case Karachi is safe in my opinion. Japan can't starve it and you can always bring some more troops there with blockade runners or subs.
I have tried sieging Karachi in stock once, wasn't able to finish it even with most of China Expeditionary Army as aid. Coupled with all BBs nuking it on daily basis and hundreds of bombers on the run. It's a pain I tell you.

But I don’t think it’s worth sending all his subs, they can do a lot more damage interdicting Japanese supply convoys to India.

True, but using some of big American subs to bring supplies and troops to Karachi is not a bad idea either. They won't do much harm with dud torpedoes anyway.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Karachi produces 6,000 supplies a month

I'm not familiar with this scenario but in this case Karachi is safe in my opinion. Japan can't starve it and you can always bring some more troops there with blockade runners or subs.
I have tried sieging Karachi in stock once, wasn't able to finish it even with most of China Expeditionary Army as aid. Coupled with all BBs nuking it on daily basis and hundreds of bombers on the run. It's a pain I tell you.

But I don’t think it’s worth sending all his subs, they can do a lot more damage interdicting Japanese supply convoys to India.

True, but using some of big American subs to bring supplies and troops to Karachi is not a bad idea either. They won't do much harm with dud torpedoes anyway.

I disagree here. He can master 9,000 AVs, well experienced and supported by let's say 300/400 bombers,plus the 4 BBs he has at hands right now. Once the final siege at Karachi is started it will be a difficult task to kepp the brits alive.

However i have 10 subs at Aden., most of which are under R&R...and using them to bring supplies is a waste imho. They can bring...let's say 200 supplies, using all of them...completely useless.
I have 12 more subs operating from Manila where i managed to sneak unseen an AS...they can do much more damage here!
All the other subs are operating in the pacific, supporting the invasion.

Anyway i'll try to use some AKs to bring supplies to Karachi...they'll be sacrificed for a good cause, but once the siege will begin no more men will be sent to Karachi, at least not untill the combined fleet is in India.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns



Japan will need a lot of supplies to keep offensive ops going in India over an extended period, and there are several choke points these convoys need to run through. Clog those choke points with subs and they should see good hunting.

Jim

Sure of that Jim?
I really think that owning the whole indian continent will give Japanese Division a kind of autharky (sp??) in terms of supplies. There are many resources in india that generate supplies so i think the Japanese Armies will be self-suffient.
But again he will need vessels to bring all those resources back to Japan...we're already at the mid of Feb 42 and Japan in CHS has at start resources only for 3 months, then its war economy will stop...so he will need to bring res back home...and asap!! That's where my PI position becomes crucial!

Anyway, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL and to YOUR FAMILIES.
May the God of War bless you with victory and glory[:D]

[ny59giants]

India is notorious in WitP of getting multiple days of RAIN, so you can use it to run in larger TF to resupply Karachi. [:D]

Think about using your subs to mine hexes 4, 5 and 6 hexes away from Karachi and towards Bombay. He will probably do a fair amount of bombardment runs to try to wear down your defenses. You may not get many hits with them being ocean hexes, but he will be surprised. [;)]

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
Sure of that Jim?
I really think that owning the whole indian continent will give Japanese Division a kind of autharky (sp??) in terms of supplies.

I think India’s supply production (assuming he captures it intact) is 4,040 resources and 90 oil centers. He has plenty of HI (2,250), so the oil is the limiting factor on HI usage. Without imports he can produce 4,580 supplies a day minus base damage.

Also Karachi has 400 resources and 50 oil centers, so that leaves him only 40 oil centers producing 240 oil a day and 3,640 resources producing an equal number of supplies. Karachi’s 350 HI reduces the 2,250 figure to 1900.

So without help he produces a max of 3,640 + 240 = 3,880 supply a day. I seriously doubt he’ll be anywhere near 100% though, so it’s more likely he’ll be producing less than 2,000 a day.

I don’t think he can run a huge offensive off that amount of supply, but I’m not sure. What’s the daily supply usage for a 9,000 AV stack of Japanese troops? Double that for combat needs and then add air and naval needs and I bet he needs about 6,000 supplies a day to maintain offensive ops.

But this is all speculation, since I’m not aware of his actual needs. I know my 1100 AV stack at Manila had a monthly consumption of about 7,000 before combat, double that to 14,000 with combat. Now multiply that by eight and you get 1100 * 8 = 8,800 AV needing 56,000 supplies a month just for standing still, and 112,000 for combat ops.

Very crude calculation I admit, but you get the picture. My 3,880 figure above only produces 116,400 supplies a month. Barley enough to feed the land army, the air arm will need just as much if not more depending on how intensive his operations are.

Then add in naval needs and replacement elements and repairing disabled equipment and the supply needs go through the roof.

Jim