10.2.1.3: If a major power is not at war with another major power when a minor country it has been selected to run captures army factors of that other major power, those army factors must be returned immediately when the minor country is conquered or the war lapses (see 4.4.6. 1).
4.4.6 EFFECTS OF PEACE: When two major powers make any type of peace, the following are always done:
4.4.6.1 PRISONER EXCHANGE: All surrendered factors and captured leaders are mutually exchanged. The exchanged factors are placed the same as reinforcements (see 5.2 and 5.3) during the next Reinforcement Phase. This is the only time prisoners are exchanged, although captured leaders may be returned at other times
Situation --
- Turkey DoWs Egypt.
- France (not at war with Turkey) receives control of Egypt.
- Egyptian forces capture the Grand Vizier, who becomes a French prisoner.
- Turkey eventually captures Cairo, and Egypt becomes a Turkish conquered territory. War ends.
- France is still not at war with Turkey, but the Grand Vizier remains a prisoner (releasable for +2 PP), but any Turkish troops captured with the Grand Vizier are returned.
It seems slightly odd that any 'army factors' that the Egyptian forces had captured would be returned to Turkey, but not any leaders. Perhaps a good place for a deviation?
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Not a grognard.
Not an optimizer. It's a game to me, not a job.
Although, theoretically France could have returned the Grand Vizier early, and still gotten the 2 PP. Personally, I think the "2 PP for returning a leader" should not apply in the case of minor country wars. There's serious abuse potential here. Picture this scenario:
1 Turkey attacks with a 1 factor corps, purposely trying to lose
2 Said corps has a leader on it
3 France captures leader
4 France returns leader
5 France pays Turkey a bribe
6 Repeat steps 1-5
The above is a situation where the Turks (who don't care much about PP) gain boodles of $ while France (or GB) gains PP, with no loss.
I would recommend that the capturing status for leaders be "remembered" by the system. When the minor neutral becomes conquered, OR when the major in charge of the minor gets into a war with the attacking major, the 2 PP bonus would be disallowed.
At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?
This must be a bug because France should not keep a leader for a nation that they are not at war with.
Maybe we should change so that minors cannot take prisoners? Any input?
I had this happen in my very first game when I added Ney to the Portuguese defense against Spain. Ney did not help in the fight and then got captured and the AI kept him until I declared war on Spain. I kind of like the current rule in light of what happened to me. As for abuse such as that mentioned above, that sort of behavior would be remedied by the other players in short order in PBEM. Solo games has the AI basically not returning prisoners (a great AI move).
I think it has to be a bug, Marshall. But, the basic rule should not be changed (that minors can capture leaders). If a major loses a leader it needs to fight, then the minor should be rewarded for capturing it, just as would a major. But:
1) once the minor is conquered, the leader should be returned, UNLESS
2) the major controlling the at-war minor ends up at war with the major who is at war with the minor. In this case, they should keep the leader until peace occurs.
Note that this says nothing about the political points. I think a simple rule addition/clarification, plus a game logic change to match, should be implemented:
Never grant the 2 PP bonus to a major for leaders captured by a minor, unless that major is also at war with the captured leader's major power. In the latter case, it's just a typical war between majors (irrespective of how the war started).
Scenarios:
Austria declares against Bavaria. France gets control, but does not declare war to support Bavaria (at least, not immediately). Austria sends a corps with Charles on it against Bavaria, but the corps is underpowered, and gets wiped out by the cav pursuit. Charles is captured, held initially by France.
If the war lapses due to the lack of a corps present, it lapses (I believe) in the movement phase. Therefore, the leader should be returned automatically. (If I'm incorrect about the timing of a lapse, that could change this. See below.)
If France declares war on Austria, or Austria declares on France, BEFORE Bavaria becomes Austrian conquered, then the leader remains captured by the French.
If I'm wrong about the exact timing of the lapse of war, then a comparison between the timing of the declaration of war and the timing of leaders' returns must be examined. If the war starts prior to the lapse of war OR prior to final conquest by Austria, then France would get to keep the leader captured. In all other circumstances, France would have to return the leader.
Note that this applies to other potential situations in the boardgame (not necessarily to the computer version). For instance, a major can attack a fleet carrying troops with which it is at war can attack that fleet. I can't recall if the major had to declare war, but I believe the option existed (even during enforced peace). If the major captures a Nelson during this, then it must be at war before the time the leader would be returned, else the leader must be returned as normal. Note that this can't apply to factors being carried which are not at war with the attacking power, but it could conceivably happen to Nelson (if the fleet he is on is vaporized).
The same thing is conceivable in a garrison battle with two powers holding troops in the city (one at war and one not).
There are a lot of end-cases, but a careful reading of the rules should solve all of them. EXCEPT the 2 PP for returning leaders. The controlling major should never be allowed to gain those 2 PP unless it is at war with the power to whom it returned the leader.
At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?
Any nation with any sense of pride, duty and honor would be obligated to inform the captured general that since the conflict he was captured in has ended, he is under no obligation to stay a moment longer.
Nations back then did not act like the Soviet Union.
The general goes home but no pp are even given for this type of prisoner release.
