Not to PBEM

[Zap]

The subject of not PBEMing has been discussed in the General Discussion area various times, in the past.

I feel there are legitimate reasons for not wanting to do a PBEM game. My main reasons for not playing PBEM's now are time at home is limited/shyness too. And by no way, should I feel that I'm anti-social because I choose to play against the AI, rite?

One poster in another thread said, "Never been a problem for me because I do not pbem...I did pbem when I beta tested"

Well for me that kind of points out my ingrained habit/resistance to PBEMing. There have been a couple of moments when I thought about having a PBEM game. Never got futher than a thought, however.

So I'm not sure what I want from starting this thread? Maybe just to hear again others reminding me of the pluses of playing strictly against the AI. And just how many of us are there? Are we mostly stubborn old men? Oh yes, anyone of you strickly AI players want a PBEM game against me?[:D]

[Veldor]

Zap,

Reasons I hate PBEM Games in no particular order:

1. Delays - When its convienient for you too play its often not convienient for them. This some people try to rectify by starting multiple games at once but that eventually/inevitably means even further delays for someone in the chain. Also see #2.
2. Loss of Focus - Due to the above you almost have to start more than one game and its easier to get confused/loose interest in a game that you haven't gotten a turn for in awhile or you have to spend redundant effort to relearn your strategic/tactical situations and what have you.
3. Quitters/Incompletes - In an AI game YOU and only you decide when its over and no longer worth playing. With PBEM sometimes you just never hear back on a game, worse sometimes you just get a turn every week or so not because they aren't playing but rather because they'd rather be playing OTHER games where maybe they are winning or whatever. OK is an early surrender but not usually very satisfying.
4. Difficult to share details - In this way PBEM games are less social as its hard to just post on the forums a particular situation or whatever for advice as then your giving away your strategies should the other player be reading. Non-Issue for AI games.
5. Gamey Tactics - Well this really could be any technique you don't care for. Maybe its just an early rush attack or maybe its something far more gamey.
6. Losing - Not so much an issue for me but I list it because you do have to deal with losing possibly a lot more or even realizing your not nearly as good at your favorite game as you thought you were when you just played the AI. There is a lot of truth in that people enjoy winning. And no one plays a game for long that they aren't good at.

Reasons why I love PBEM Games in no particular order:

1. Challenge - A Human opponent is far more challenging, crafty, and a realistic opponent. Therefore there is also significantly more satisfaction in winning as well.
2. There is no #2. I would list the social aspect but thats actually pretty absent in my opinion in PBEM. With TCP/IP games its more natural to just talk and socialize. But with PBEM its really just a little chatter here and there along with your game turn, if even. Hardly a plus I talk to you all much more on the forum than through any PBEM turn (Those who really socializing need TCP/IP Games).

But to address you question I'd say you have to at least try it. Nothing else like it. You can pretty much just send your turn, not say much, and otherwise pretend your playing the AI .

Sad thing though that I have the whole week off but its just easier to play the AI so I can actually finish games and fill the time. I'd have to start too many PBEM games otherwise that I would later then not be able to keep up with, assuming that would even work to get back enough during the holidays in the first place.

No this gamer wishes more wargame designs would cater to either of the two extremes.... A.I. Solo Play or TCP/IP Live Play. The PBEM in the middle I think is dated for good reason. Perhaps part of what drags that along is the IGO-UGO concept. In a WEGO variety you can all manage/plan your turns online simulataneously without having to wait and do nothing for others.

In time I don't think we will see as many PBEM style games. In the meantime though don't pass up the experience....

[JudgeDredd]

Well, I said that quote, so I suppose I ought to justufy myself in the thread it's mentioned.

A lot of the reasons Veldor mentioned are pretty much my thoughts...but sub consiously. That is to say, they make sense now, and are valid reasons...but I never get to thinking about them because of the two main reasons ...
[ol][*]Continuity - I want to play my game there and then. I don't want to play a turn, stop, exit, send and wait until it comes back. It breaks the immersion for me.[*]Cheating - I have to say I've only ever noticed it in FPS online gaming - but that's because I saw it and it put me off online gaming. It puts me off playing other people because it reminds me how alot of people are....must win and if they don't, dolly is thrown out the pram. I, myself, hate losing, but I will not cheat to win....but one thing I hate more is losing because someone cheated and it's because I could be playing a cheat that I don't want to play[/ol]Those are the two main reasons that spring to my mind when I play

[Rooster]

I've found that if you find opponets at a place where there's a ladder, you're going to end up playing people who just want to pad their record with an easy win against a PBEM newbie - though some will be kind enough to give you some pointers. 
 
If you can find somebody you like/trust who just wants the experience of playing a human, you'll be alright.

[DD696]

As an AI player and occasional poster in the War in the Pacific forum, I get extremely weary of being treated as if I were a member of the lower caste in the caste system that exists there. Then there is the need for the more rabid P-bemer's to constantly harass you to PBEM, which is the reason for my statement below. I often feel that seperate forums should exist so that an AI player can also have a place to freely discuss issues of concern, which in the case of the AI player, are often AI issues. Of course these are non-issues to the honchos of the forum.

[JudgeDredd]

Well, it has to be said, whilst I am not a PBEM player....how much time actually goes into development of an AI?? How many man hours of a games development goes to AI??

It would make absolute sense that we should do the "PBEM" thing and go with it. That way, the developers could concentrate on game balancing rules (to prevent "Gamey Tactics" as suggested by Veldor) and features.

Perhaps it's the way forward.

Perhaps the need for a proper online matching system which allows for people to meet and play online (rts) or PBEM? From my knowledge of "looking into that dark cupboard", there are very little tools there for you to be able to do so from the game, where the developers rely on websites like Wargamer etc.

It couls use a point system, so a newbie could look at another newbie. This would entail seeing how many games played, to completion, won, lost, draw etc, etc...more would be required...some sort of system where both players would have to agree who pulled out....mmmm.....I think I've just talked about Wargamer!! [:D]

But the tools present for PBEM/Online playing in the wargaming industry are ridiculous. I can fire up COD4 and jump on a server. Admittedly the functional requirements for COD4 and a wargame are very different, but the point is there is no easy way to find anyone online nevermind play anyone online...and who is of a similar standard to you.

Also, whilst "gamey tactics" are being allowed, whether they be there due to lack of resources because of programming an AI or not, the system is not workable. What might be "gamey tactics" to one person (the final rush to the victory location with all units for maximum points, leaving all other points undefended)...isn't necessarily gamey to the other person....and they have a point...the engine allows this to be done.

Call it a bug if you will, or a feature seems to be the norm nowadays...but if it's in the game, then it's in the game.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: DD696

As an AI player and occasional poster in the War in the Pacific forum, I get extremely weary of being treated as if I were a member of the lower caste in the caste system that exists there. Then there is the need for the more rabid P-bemer's to constantly harass you to PBEM, which is the reason for my statement below. I often feel that seperate forums should exist so that an AI player can also have a place to freely discuss issues of concern, which in the case of the AI player, are often AI issues. Of course these are non-issues to the honchos of the forum.

For the more popular games I would agree. Also a "newb forum" like other forums elsewhere have. Otherwise some forums are entirely too hostile and your caste comment is pretty accurate. Though I'm not sure this has happened with any other forum than WITP I hate it too. The AT forum by comparison is super newb and AI friendly. But it also is a much much newer game. I guess we will see what happens there after a couple years...

I still cannot convince people I know in person to ever post on most forums. It might be hard for any of us to understand but this is the reason why I know there are a greater majority of people and opinions than would ever be represented here.

[ravinhood]

Professor Veldor sums it up best for me as well. Sometimes I want and like to play a PBEM game, but, I need a partner who can play as fast and reply back as fast as I do. On weekends I like to play it sort of like an ISP game, just email after email. It's hard to find an opponent like that. Plus at the same times. Then of course you have the losing quitters who because they know they can't win never send you back an email or anything, just poof and they are gone and just change their online handle to something else so you can't warn others about them. Then you always have in the back of your head that some of your opponents are "cheating" because NOBODY I mean NOBODY can be THAT LUCKY every single roll of the dice or event. Sorry I just can't deal with lady luck being that nice to anyone. I know the AI cheats, but, at least I know it from the start and can deal pretty much with resource cheating as that's pretty much the only way to make todays AI's challenging. But, human players find gamey ways to cheat and other hacking means of cheating like playing a turn over n over until they get the optimal results and then send you the file back. Of course I know some games have built in detectors to alert opponents of this cheating, but, a hacker can even get around this I'm sure.
 
This is why I promote the making of entry level wargames that only require a few hours of play to complete and that they be TCP/IP playable. This way it eliminates a lot of cheating and satisfaction is had in a few hours instead of months and years. (Lord knows how long it takes to play a PBEM game of WitP?)

[Oleg Mastruko]

So I'm not sure what I want from starting this thread? Maybe just to hear again others reminding me of the pluses of playing strictly against the AI.

I'd be glad to do that for you. Here is the list of pluses of playing strictly against the AI:

-

That's it. Glad to be of service, bye.

[KG Erwin]

Oleg's post is one of the reasons I don't play PBEM. There's a certain elitism that some PBEMers attach to themselves, for whatever unknown reason. They thumb their noses at playing against the AI, as they perceive it as being "beneath" them.

Of course, that attitude is wrong, as the majority of gamers play against the AI. That silent majority doesn't post as much, either.

Sure, I played a PBEM once, and it was fun, but I never had any intention of playing in that fashion all the time.

So, if you like it, fine. If you don't, that's fine, too.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Oleg's post is one of the reasons I don't play PBEM. There's a certain elitism that some PBEMers attach to themselves, for whatever unknown reason. They thumb their noses at playing against the AI, as they perceive it as being "beneath" them.
.....
So, if you like it, fine. If you don't, that's fine, too.

Absolutely, that's fine. Playing solely against AI is perfectly fine if that's your choice.

However, asking for people to provide you with *justification* for that on a wargaming forum is stupid IMO.

AI is second class opponent, in some, more complex games it's third class opponent, in some games it's no challenge AT ALL. Of course people who play frist class opponents (ie other people) will laugh at you if you play second class opponents and insist you're doing fine and/or taking it (the AI) seriously.

Personally I find people who complain about AI in mega complex strategic games like WITP, EiA etc - ridicolous. If you even *expect* the AI to provide strategic challenge in games as complex as those you don't know a frist thing abpout games, AI, software etc.

Yeah well sorry if I seem "elitist" to you, I think I am just being brutally realistic, sorry if you don't like Real World (it's a cruel place I know, playing vs AI is certaily easier)

[IronDuke_slith]

I start every new game against the AI, get bored after about 15 minutes and go looking for a human opponent. The one exception were the HTTR and COA which don't do PBEM and I've never really taken to the online thing.

Ultimately, I just don't get the same satisfaction beating up on an AI that I do against a human opponent. I think its because ultimately I know I will find a way to beat even a good AI eventually (and usually sooner rather than later), but a good Human is something else...

Each to his own, but I don't really use the AI for anything other than a training aid.

Regards,
IronDuke

[mikul82]

The main reason I don't like it much has already been listed above as "continuity".  I'm either in the mood to play, or I'm not-  I'll go through phases of non-stop wargaming, then just as suddenly lose all interest/desire to focus so hard and play something lighter for awhile.  Every time I PBEM, it seems like once I get in the "zone" of concentrating, it's already time to send off the turn and wait.  I just don't like it, as said above, it wrecks the immersion for me.

Phase-based games, such as the Battleground series or HPS Civil War games, are completely out of the question.  I can't imagine doing the PBEM routine just to click "end turn" on a "charge phase" in which I don't do any charging, re-send, and wait.

[mikul82]

BTW, the "elitists" have overrun the flight sim forums out there as well-  There is a reason why I like the "Time Compression" button so much on flight sims, and flying a 20-30 minute approach and then departure path to and from a target for a few moments of combat IS NOT my idea of fun.  It may be realistic, but that's a level of realism I can do without.

[e_barkmann]

It would be interesting to note how many of the 'AI only' brigade started their wargaming careers with computer wargames as opposed to board wargames. For myself, I cut my wargaming teeth on boardgames but moved to computer games in the late 80's - but I generally am not interested in a game that is AI only because it doesn't feel right to me; not being able to take it that step further and play it like a board game with another player is usually a deal killer. But to each their own. Ultimately these games are for individual entertainment.

cheers

[DD696]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Oleg's post is one of the reasons I don't play PBEM. There's a certain elitism that some PBEMers attach to themselves, for whatever unknown reason. They thumb their noses at playing against the AI, as they perceive it as being "beneath" them.
.....
So, if you like it, fine. If you don't, that's fine, too.

Absolutely, that's fine. Playing solely against AI is perfectly fine if that's your choice.

However, asking for people to provide you with *justification* for that on a wargaming forum is stupid IMO.

AI is second class opponent, in some, more complex games it's third class opponent, in some games it's no challenge AT ALL. Of course people who play frist class opponents (ie other people) will laugh at you if you play second class opponents and insist you're doing fine and/or taking it (the AI) seriously.

Personally I find people who complain about AI in mega complex strategic games like WITP, EiA etc - ridicolous. If you even *expect* the AI to provide strategic challenge in games as complex as those you don't know a frist thing abpout games, AI, software etc.

Yeah well sorry if I seem "elitist" to you, I think I am just being brutally realistic, sorry if you don't like Real World (it's a cruel place I know, playing vs AI is certaily easier)

So you say I know nothing about games, AI, software, etc. I say you have no knowledge of me and, I would have to add, the vast majority of people who play games.

I started playing wargames in 1962 by designing them myself using roadmaps. I wrote my first computer program in 1965 for an IBM 1401. I retired in 1992 at the age of 45 after a career as a senior systems analyst. So, obiviously I must know nothing.

Please, enlighten me. Just where did I go wrong? Since I know nothing of the real world, you must be sure that I have lived life complety in error. Please, enlightened one, tell me how I should have lived my life and what I must do now.

Personally, I don't find you "elitist" at all. Just a bored P-bemer who cannot resist harassing those who like to play the games.

[mikul82]

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

It would be interesting to note how many of the 'AI only' brigade started their wargaming careers with computer wargames as opposed to board wargames. For myself, I cut my wargaming teeth on boardgames but moved to computer games in the late 80's - but I generally am not interested in a game that is AI only because it doesn't feel right to me; not being able to take it that step further and play it like a board game with another player is usually a deal killer. But to each their own. Ultimately these games are for individual entertainment.

cheers

I started with PC games, Allied General was the first and then the Campaign Series were the ones that got me hooked. I've never played a board/tabletop wargame in my life (unless Chess counts), and I have no idea who would actually play them with me if I did. I might could get my girlfriend into a low-complexity one, but I dont' think she'd want to play it much.

[DD696]

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

It would be interesting to note how many of the 'AI only' brigade started their wargaming careers with computer wargames as opposed to board wargames. For myself, I cut my wargaming teeth on boardgames but moved to computer games in the late 80's - but I generally am not interested in a game that is AI only because it doesn't feel right to me; not being able to take it that step further and play it like a board game with another player is usually a deal killer. But to each their own. Ultimately these games are for individual entertainment.

cheers

The first computer game I ran across was a StarTrek sim at HQ, USMC about 1974, but I played a great many boardgames both before and after.....and I still have a collection of many 100's dating from 1967 on. I wonder how many of the PBEM crowd have even seen, much less played, a wargame from that period.

[ravinhood]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Oleg's post is one of the reasons I don't play PBEM. There's a certain elitism that some PBEMers attach to themselves, for whatever unknown reason. They thumb their noses at playing against the AI, as they perceive it as being "beneath" them.
.....
So, if you like it, fine. If you don't, that's fine, too.

Absolutely, that's fine. Playing solely against AI is perfectly fine if that's your choice.

However, asking for people to provide you with *justification* for that on a wargaming forum is stupid IMO.

AI is second class opponent, in some, more complex games it's third class opponent, in some games it's no challenge AT ALL. Of course people who play frist class opponents (ie other people) will laugh at you if you play second class opponents and insist you're doing fine and/or taking it (the AI) seriously.

Personally I find people who complain about AI in mega complex strategic games like WITP, EiA etc - ridicolous. If you even *expect* the AI to provide strategic challenge in games as complex as those you don't know a frist thing abpout games, AI, software etc.

Yeah well sorry if I seem "elitist" to you, I think I am just being brutally realistic, sorry if you don't like Real World (it's a cruel place I know, playing vs AI is certaily easier)

Sorry Oleg but your information is Flawed and = FAIL....why? Because even human opponents can be just as bad and in many cases actually WORSE than an AI and games against these types can even be more boring and much less rewarding. In the perfect world yeah you might find someone your equal and those games would produce challenge after challenge, but, then you are playing the "same person" over and over for that challenge and satisfaction. It takes many games and different types of gaming and players to find someone of that equality as oneself. But, this is NOT a Perfect world so most games are going to end up lopsided just as much as playing most AI's. At least there are difficulty settings and sliders to make AI's more challenging or less challenging at a click of a mouse or tapping of a key. You cannot get this kind of change in a human opponent at the drop of a bucket. So, sorry as I said your information is flawed and = FAIL because you didn't take all this into consideration in your elitist attitude that only human vs human competition can ever be challenging above and beyond a computer opponent. We win you lose....bye now....have a nice day.

Just a bored P-bemer who cannot resist harassing those who like to play the games.

I thought it was more like an e-peen thing they had since they can't stand out in the real world as anything or anyone special?[:)]

[freeboy]

to thine own self blah blah blah etc.. play pbem if that is your thing, if not that is fine, for me some games just cry our for a good old fashined beat up the ai, forge and the ageod games come to mind, as well as the sims, like panzer commander and tow, yep for its warts still a fun game imo, previously alll the cm games etc.
 
I played the witp game out, ALOT of time to get to the end of that in pbem mode... currently fast playing lots of AT.. which is fun in pbem.. and I play with guys who crush my nuts and others who are still learning..
 
Again, it should be a do what you want arena, really who cares if some yahoo, even me, says some idiocy about something... just play solo, or not. It is tooo bad folks feeling get hurt.. life is too short... perhaps its time to get an online game of carriers.. is that possible? lol