Admiral's Edition General Thread

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Mike Scholl
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RE: Political Points

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I agree in principle, but I think the solution you propose will not help because it will create other problems. Already the restricted commands suffer from an artificial limitation that they cannot move by ship within their own (legitimate) command area. That is ridiculous. Personally I would rather do away with restricted commands and rely on the honor system - make the HR up front and both stick to it. If a real program restriction could be made to work I would support it, but so far all make more problems that they are worth, including the current system.


Big Time Agreement here. The "dumbness" for the Dutch having to pay "PP's" to move a Dutch unit from Dutch Java to Dutch Sumatra has always made me suspect that the guys at 2by3 were periodically smoking some "funny cigarettes".
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RE: Political Points

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


Big Time Agreement here. The "dumbness" for the Dutch having to pay "PP's" to move a Dutch unit from Dutch Java to Dutch Sumatra has always made me suspect that the guys at 2by3 were periodically smoking some "funny cigarettes".

Having played Pacific War for years, I can understand (sort of) why it was done. In the older game, I would always evacuate the troops from Malay, Singapore and the DEI and use them to counter-attack early. Very gamey no doubt.

On the other hand, I should be able to evacuate Dutch troops from Celebes to Java if I want to try to defend the main island. They are in the same command, it should be a simple matter of moving them.

So I agree with you, but I see why it was done as it was.

On another subject. Couldn't a higher up command order a unit to temporarily attatch itself to another command for an operation? For example a China Command unit moving into Burma for an operation. I'm just wondering if it is wise to restrict land movement of restricted commands completely. I could see a Chinese division moving into Burma to help defend the Burma road under its parent HQ for example.
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RE: Political Points

Post by okami »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I agree in principle, but I think the solution you propose will not help because it will create other problems. Already the restricted commands suffer from an artificial limitation that they cannot move by ship within their own (legitimate) command area. That is ridiculous. Personally I would rather do away with restricted commands and rely on the honor system - make the HR up front and both stick to it. If a real program restriction could be made to work I would support it, but so far all make more problems that they are worth, including the current system.


Big Time Agreement here. The "dumbness" for the Dutch having to pay "PP's" to move a Dutch unit from Dutch Java to Dutch Sumatra has always made me suspect that the guys at 2by3 were periodically smoking some "funny cigarettes".
The rule is a good one, it's application maybe flawed. I was not including the ships as AE is. I to think this is in away in error. At the beginning of the war ships will not be able to escape the Japanese will be like shooting fish in a barrel. I beleive this is a zoning issue. If the Dutch are restricted to the DEI then they should be able to load and unload at any DEI base but no other. If the code can be change to this way of deal with restricted zones then no units anywhere will have the advantage of free land movement and still the Dutch will have the flexibility of defending where you want them to.
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RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread

Post by bstarr »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Well I wanted to post the roles and responsibilities for the project so the forum will have visibility to who has been doing what. People have been arriving and departing off the project for well over a year now so a list like this is only a snap shot - and it is certain to change again before we are through, but here it is as it is now. Of course some folks do many things and I'm not going to make this a 50 page document, but these are the primary roles these people have at this time.

Air Team
Ian Kibler(TheElf) - Team Lead
Thomas Eliot (TimTom) - OOB Research
Steve Sanchez(ChezDaJez) - OOB Research, Testing
Brian Wischer (BigB) - OOB Research, Testing
Mike Kraemer - Testing
Michael McFarland - Programming
Cathartes - Air Art

Naval Team
Kristian Fischer(Terminus) - Team Lead
Justin Prince(Tankerace) - OOB Research
John Eldredge(JWE) - OOB Research
Bruce Powers - Testing
Don Bowen - Programming

Ground Team
Andy McPhie - Team Lead
Kereguelen - OOB Research
Joel Szabat(Blackhorse) - OOB Research
BadNews - OOB Research
Mike Scholl - Testing
Joe Chandler(SonnyII) - Testing
James Armstrong(BigJ62) - Programming

Map Team
Andrew Brown - Team Lead, Map Development
Bob Trapasso - Testing

Ship Art
John Eldredge(JWE)
Kelly LaBelle (TOMLABEL)
Brian Wisher (BigB)

Reporting
Markus Baumeister(WOOS)

Assistance and Advice
Steve Dyer (Nikademus)
Forest Webb (TreeSpider)
Chris Richards(Drongo)

Project Management
Joe Wilkerson - Project Lead and other tasks that needed doing
Kristian Fischer - Deputy Project Lead
wdolsen - Integration Test Coordinator

Talk about a dream team. All of the people we love yet none of the people we love to hate. God bless you guys! [:D]

(sorry for commenting on a month old post. I've been away for some time now so this is news to me)

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RE: Political Points

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: okami
ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Big Time Agreement here. The "dumbness" for the Dutch having to pay "PP's" to move a Dutch unit from Dutch Java to Dutch Sumatra has always made me suspect that the guys at 2by3 were periodically smoking some "funny cigarettes".
The rule is a good one, it's application maybe flawed. I was not including the ships as AE is. I to think this is in away in error. At the beginning of the war ships will not be able to escape the Japanese will be like shooting fish in a barrel. I beleive this is a zoning issue. If the Dutch are restricted to the DEI then they should be able to load and unload at any DEI base but no other. If the code can be change to this way of deal with restricted zones then no units anywhere will have the advantage of free land movement and still the Dutch will have the flexibility of defending where you want them to.


I'd say more that the rule was based on a good idea..., but totally flawed in design. If "PP's" had been charged to "unload" in a different "zone", they would have had something. Then the Americans could move around within the Philippines, the Dutch within the DEI, the Australians within Australian Territories; all for no PP's. It would only cost PP's if they wanted to "unload" in some other command's zone. 2by3 got it backwards, and every attempt to deal with it since has been hamstrung by their failure.
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RE: Political Points

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
If "PP's" had been charged to "unload" in a different "zone", they would have had something.

While this sounds good in theory, I can visualize fleets of embarked troops still aboard ship waiting at some out of the way rear area port for PP to accumulate enough for them to unload. Between the two choices, I think forcing you to pay to embark troops first actually has less inclination to be gamed.

Sucks for the early commands, but they’re doomed anyway. Better to prevent gamey tactics than to allow a few tiny land units to move to Java.

I think a better solution would be to give the tiny nations an intrinsic lift allotment. Players then could load units onto this intrinsic fleet and give units a destination. The unit would vanish from map and appear at the new base in x number of days (kind of like west coast units moving to Karachi in stock).

The weakness of this system is Japan wouldn’t be able to interdict the moves. But if we kept the available lift low (about a battalion at a time can be afloat max), it would at least give each fixed command some flexibility.

Or perhaps design some small coastal vessels that would be allowed to lift fixed command units. With tiny endurances and an inability to move when out of fuel. They would also need to be unable to refuel at sea, this way they couldn’t make a run for Australia or India with units aboard. Though this would probably be too hard to code.

Another option would to be to make all commands free commands, but then slam units at bases not attached to their parent units. Say the first turn 50% of their equipment gets disabled, and then 10% a turn until all equipment was disabled. Then start destroying equipment in 5% chunks until the unit evaporates.

I think the last option would be best, since it would force players to keep units within their parent commands and not allow exploits like sending Manchukuo units to China or Chinese units to Southeast Asia areas, etc.

Jim

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RE: Political Points

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
If "PP's" had been charged to "unload" in a different "zone", they would have had something.

While this sounds good in theory, I can visualize fleets of embarked troops still aboard ship waiting at some out of the way rear area port for PP to accumulate enough for them to unload. Between the two choices, I think forcing you to pay to embark troops first actually has less inclination to be gamed.



So basically you are afraid some players might "cheat"? I concede the possibility, but two limiting factors should get consideration. One, the units should accumulate a lot of attrition sitting on boats for extended periods unsupplied, and two, a "house rule" against such behavior should be a lot easier than most to implement. Then if you find an opponant still doing it, you write them off as a "cheat" and don't play with them any more.

I still think it would be the easiest "fix" to implement for this annoying situation. Some "programmer type" please correct me if I'm wrong...
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RE: Political Points

Post by jwilkerson »

Probably about a year ago, by now, there was a significant amount of discussion on the AE Team about re-working the PP system at least as far as the LCU restrictions and effects were concerned.

I was one of the folks working on this, the details are documented on our development wiki, but briefly, the idea was that anybody could move anywhere any time, as long as they were willing to accept the consequences of their actions.

The consequences varied with time and place, but included expanding the idea of "garrisons" similar to the way they work in China, but with varying effects.

For example, in DEI, IRL, the Dutch military was actually more worried about rebellions from within, than Japanese landings from without, so we included some effects, like in Summatra, to not only encourage the Dutch player in terms of keeping troops there, but actually to encourage the Dutch player to move in additional troops, as was done in the real war.

For the Allies, in Malaya, there were negative moral effects for the troops that remained, if troops were withdrawn. I think this was also the case for the P.I.

Further, there were supply penalties and morale penalties (as well as other penalities) for being at a base assigned to a command HQ other than the command HQ to which the LCU was assigned. This encouraged the player to make the LCU and the bases have the same command HQ.

Bottom line, this system sounded "promising" but met up with the "axe" of too much work, too little resources, too little time. Basically the work on the map took precedence. But this is not to say a different system could not be done one day. But the system we were bouncing around was not trival, it was not really a band-aid, it was a different system for handling reassignment and relocation of LCU between HQs and geographical units. I wish it was in, but it isn't. So, for the most part, in this area, we will be living with the stock system.

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RE: Political Points

Post by msieving1 »

ORIGINAL: okami

ORIGINAL: VSWG


Also, assume you have assigned the 2nd Marines to SoPac in 1942. In 1944, you want to use the division for a CentPac invasion. With your method, I would have to spend PP to reassign the unit. IMO this reassignment should be for free.
Without a cost what would stop you from sending the same unit anywhere. Currently we use houserules to stop the gross gameplay of say moving Kwangtung Army units anywhere on the Asian continent. Let's try and solve the problem and eliminate the need for houserules. Ask yourself this question, that same 2nd Marine Division has just landed on Tarawa. How long before it is ready for another amphibious operation?

In most cases, the limitations should come from the availability of transport and logistics. How long a unit that's been in combat would require before being ready for another operation would depend on the level of casualties and the unit's fatigue and disruption. If these factors are not dealt with realistically, then that's where a change is needed, not some artificial limitation imposed by the HQ the unit's assigned to.

There are cases where political issues override the operational constraints. For the Japanese, any significant withdrawal from China would have been politically unacceptable, regardless of the military advantages or logistical feasibility. It would not have been politically feasible for the British to abandon Malaya, or the US to leave the Philippines, or the Dutch to run away from the East Indies. This, I think, is what the restricted commands are intended to reflect. But these cases are the exceptions.

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RE: Political Points

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: msieving1

ORIGINAL: okami

ORIGINAL: VSWG


Also, assume you have assigned the 2nd Marines to SoPac in 1942. In 1944, you want to use the division for a CentPac invasion. With your method, I would have to spend PP to reassign the unit. IMO this reassignment should be for free.
Without a cost what would stop you from sending the same unit anywhere. Currently we use houserules to stop the gross gameplay of say moving Kwangtung Army units anywhere on the Asian continent. Let's try and solve the problem and eliminate the need for houserules. Ask yourself this question, that same 2nd Marine Division has just landed on Tarawa. How long before it is ready for another amphibious operation?

In most cases, the limitations should come from the availability of transport and logistics. How long a unit that's been in combat would require before being ready for another operation would depend on the level of casualties and the unit's fatigue and disruption. If these factors are not dealt with realistically, then that's where a change is needed, not some artificial limitation imposed by the HQ the unit's assigned to.

There are cases where political issues override the operational constraints. For the Japanese, any significant withdrawal from China would have been politically unacceptable, regardless of the military advantages or logistical feasibility. It would not have been politically feasible for the British to abandon Malaya, or the US to leave the Philippines, or the Dutch to run away from the East Indies. This, I think, is what the restricted commands are intended to reflect. But these cases are the exceptions.


Has anyone mentioned the politics of inter-service rivalry that affected both sides... IMO that is what the PP's also represent.
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RE: Political Points

Post by Panther Bait »

How about rather than paying when they unload, the player pays PPs to load the restricted units, but gets a rebate when they unload at a same HQ base.

That way if they move the unit somewhere else or hold it on the ships, they have paid the PPs just as if they switched HQs. Otherwise they can make the short inter-island hop and get the points back relatively quickly, freeing up more transfers. This would limit the rate of transfer, but probably not too dramatically. If the transports are sunk, the player should probably get the PPs back, but not if the unit is unloaded somewhere else and dies in combat.

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RE: Political Points

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

How about rather than paying when they unload, the player pays PPs to load the restricted units, but gets a rebate when they unload at a same HQ base.

That way if they move the unit somewhere else or hold it on the ships, they have paid the PPs just as if they switched HQs. Otherwise they can make the short inter-island hop and get the points back relatively quickly, freeing up more transfers. This would limit the rate of transfer, but probably not too dramatically. If the transports are sunk, the player should probably get the PPs back, but not if the unit is unloaded somewhere else and dies in combat.


Sounds simple except for the fact that you now have to create a data slot for each and every unit to track the points which would require even greater system resources to process the turn.
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RE: Political Points

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: msieving1

ORIGINAL: okami



Without a cost what would stop you from sending the same unit anywhere. Currently we use houserules to stop the gross gameplay of say moving Kwangtung Army units anywhere on the Asian continent. Let's try and solve the problem and eliminate the need for houserules. Ask yourself this question, that same 2nd Marine Division has just landed on Tarawa. How long before it is ready for another amphibious operation?

In most cases, the limitations should come from the availability of transport and logistics. How long a unit that's been in combat would require before being ready for another operation would depend on the level of casualties and the unit's fatigue and disruption. If these factors are not dealt with realistically, then that's where a change is needed, not some artificial limitation imposed by the HQ the unit's assigned to.

There are cases where political issues override the operational constraints. For the Japanese, any significant withdrawal from China would have been politically unacceptable, regardless of the military advantages or logistical feasibility. It would not have been politically feasible for the British to abandon Malaya, or the US to leave the Philippines, or the Dutch to run away from the East Indies. This, I think, is what the restricted commands are intended to reflect. But these cases are the exceptions.


Has anyone mentioned the politics of inter-service rivalry that affected both sides... IMO that is what the PP's also represent.

By mid-43 the original US interservice rivalry had morphed into a SWPAC/CENTPAC rivalry/grab-for-assets, which is already covered under jwilkerson's comments. Sounded like an interesting system tho.
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RE: Political Points

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: msieving1




In most cases, the limitations should come from the availability of transport and logistics. How long a unit that's been in combat would require before being ready for another operation would depend on the level of casualties and the unit's fatigue and disruption. If these factors are not dealt with realistically, then that's where a change is needed, not some artificial limitation imposed by the HQ the unit's assigned to.

There are cases where political issues override the operational constraints. For the Japanese, any significant withdrawal from China would have been politically unacceptable, regardless of the military advantages or logistical feasibility. It would not have been politically feasible for the British to abandon Malaya, or the US to leave the Philippines, or the Dutch to run away from the East Indies. This, I think, is what the restricted commands are intended to reflect. But these cases are the exceptions.


Has anyone mentioned the politics of inter-service rivalry that affected both sides... IMO that is what the PP's also represent.

By mid-43 the original US interservice rivalry had morphed into a SWPAC/CENTPAC rivalry/grab-for-assets, which is already covered under jwilkerson's comments. Sounded like an interesting system tho.

It was an interesting system...and still could be...but things needed to be pared down.
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RE: Political Points

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Bottom line, this system sounded "promising" but met up with the "axe" of too much work, too little resources, too little time. Basically the work on the map took precedence. But this is not to say a different system could not be done one day. But the system we were bouncing around was not trival, it was not really a band-aid, it was a different system for handling reassignment and relocation of LCU between HQs and geographical units. I wish it was in, but it isn't. So, for the most part, in this area, we will be living with the stock system.

Joe,

I like the system you outline a whole lot. How about doing nothing now and looking at something like you outlined for a major patch?
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RE: Political Points

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: witpqs



Joe,

I like the system you outline a whole lot. How about doing nothing now and looking at something like you outlined for a major patch?

Well, I can agree with that, since that is pretty much where we are!


BTW, treespider, was the "other guy" working on this idea with me, back before real life intervened and he had to go serve his real masters!
:)

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RE: Political Points

Post by witpqs »

...and he had to go serve his real masters!

The nerve of them!
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RE: Political Points

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: treespider
ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

How about rather than paying when they unload, the player pays PPs to load the restricted units, but gets a rebate when they unload at a same HQ base.

That way if they move the unit somewhere else or hold it on the ships, they have paid the PPs just as if they switched HQs. Otherwise they can make the short inter-island hop and get the points back relatively quickly, freeing up more transfers. This would limit the rate of transfer, but probably not too dramatically. If the transports are sunk, the player should probably get the PPs back, but not if the unit is unloaded somewhere else and dies in combat.

Sounds simple except for the fact that you now have to create a data slot for each and every unit to track the points which would require even greater system resources to process the turn.


Drat! Guess I had to know that anything that seemed like such an "elegant solution" would trip over reality....
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RE: Political Points

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
...and he had to go serve his real masters!

The nerve of them!


They pay better...although the satisfaction isn't quite the same.
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RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread

Post by akdreemer »

When the arrivals of reinforcements show up on map they are briefly dsiplayed on the screen, then no additional record of them can be found. Will there be a record made?
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