Not to PBEM

[Fred98]

For me, playing against the AI is not satisfying. Win or lose it has no meaning.

As for ladders, SSG has a ladder and I prefer to play somebody nearby.

I have played very good players and I have asked that the Fog of War be "off" for me and "on" for him - and I learnt a bit from that.

-

[Zap]

[quote]ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


However, asking for people to provide you with *justification* for that on a wargaming forum is stupid IMO.


I did'nt ask for "justification" simply to "remind me " of the pluses. I did state my reasons for not My main reasons for not playing PBEM's now are time at home is limited/shyness too.
My style of presentation was meant to evoke a response from gamers who use the AI. And the response was excellent by Veldor and others.


Oleg Mastruko "is stupid IMO"
I know my contributions to the board don't reach to the levels of others. But I do bring a different perspective. I hope some found the responses interesting and encourage participation.

But think about this. As KG ERWIN states: "Of course, that attitude is wrong, as the majority of gamers play against the AI. That silent majority doesn't post as much, either."
And I believe that to be true. The majority of players out there are players against the AI. They are the silent majority." I would hope to get some of that silent majority to post for the first time. And that can't be bad? I'm sure Matrix would like to hear from more of its members. Nothing better than having a highly active participation don't you think?

[ravinhood]

Another point to mention here is the multiplayers and PBEMers of WARGAMES owe all the solo players a debt of gratitude for buying products that the multiplayers and PBEMers enjoy. You let Matrixgames make games that are just multiplayer and PBEM only WITHOUT an AI and watch how long they remain in business. Us solo players can live without the multiplayers and PBEMers and game companies can survive without making games multiplayer or PBEM (GalCiv 2 and Stardock anyone?   ) since the multiplayer community is very small in all catagories of gaming except for MMMORPG's and MMO's which require one to play in strictly a multiplayer online environment. So you gotta love someone like Oleg who thinks his way of gaming is the perfect way of gaming and that solo play is for the "lesser" mentality of gamers. Plus when you run into people like Oleg with that type of attitude you certainly don't want to play a game with them. He most likely probably cheats.

[Zap]

RH
Plus when you run into people like Oleg with that type of attitude you certainly don't want to play a game with them.


Your right about that! I'm glad that all PBEMers don't share his attitude.

[Oleg Mastruko]

So you say I know nothing about games, AI, software, etc. I say you have no knowledge of me and, I would have to add, the vast majority of people who play games.

I started playing wargames in 1962 by designing them myself using roadmaps. I wrote my first computer program in 1965 for an IBM 1401. I retired in 1992 at the age of 45 after a career as a senior systems analyst. So, obiviously I must know nothing.

Ah so we have "me me me" post. We bow before your elite skills oh The Great One. So what if you designed NASA lunar module in the 60's? If you play AI you're playing second rate opponent and that's it. No escaping from that simple fact.

Don't take it so personally mate.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Zap
Plus when you run into people like Oleg with that type of attitude you certainly

don't want to play a game with them.

Zap I am very pleasant as PBEM opponent, also reliable, fast to reply with turns, I never quit, I never cry "foul", I can take losing with smile (winning too LOL), I can laugh at my mistakes etc. I almost never had anyone complain to me as PBEM partner, even though I had couple small disagreements about rules vs some guys but hey that comes with the territory. I made many Internet friends playing PBEM, and no enemies.

Don't take my word for that, ask any of my former PBEM partners on this board and I am sure they will confirm what I said.

It's just that I find you "I play AI and want justification for that" guys simply laughable.

So lets say you play chess. But you're too shy, hate losing, socially awkward or whatever, and you NEVER play chess vs other humans. That's fine that's your choice.

So you play chess vs your hamster, for the same reasons you prefer AI in PC games - hamster is always there, he never quits, he never complains etc etc blah blah, insert any of the "pro-only-AI" arguments here (they are all applicable to your good ole hamster).

That's fine too. Enjoy your hamster chess my friend. The point when it's no longer "fine" is when you post on the web board asking other chess players to *justify* your choice of playing vs your hamster. I am sorry my friend but if you do that you only can get ridicule from me.

Some AI players won't even stop there. They write angry letters to Union of hamster breeders asking - no, demanding - that they produce better, smarter hamsters so they can play more challenging games of hamster chess with them. They complain that today's hamsters just won't cut it. Yes I find that even more ridicolous.

You might as well face it - hamsters don't make challenging chess partners! That's all there is to it.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Sorry Oleg but your information is Flawed and = FAIL....why? Because even human opponents can be just as bad and in many cases actually WORSE than an AI and games against these types can even be more boring and much less rewarding.

True to a degree. However only a person with solid PBEM experience can comment on the bad opponents, as he saw them all, ranging from bad to solid to phenomenal.

For most players owning n00bs never gets old. It's *always* and I mean always more satisfying than winning over some AI non-entity. Just imagine the dude on the other side is Percival or [insert your favorite worst historical commander here] and play on.

Also, you can use the opportunity to teach your opponent some things (that can be very rewarding).

Bottom line: interacting with humans is ALWAYS more fun than interacting with hamster... pardon, the AI.

[DD696]

Sorry Oleg, but you do have my sympathies. This thread is about reasons to not pbem and I am sure the author has serious reasons for having a discussion about it. Your only ability is to attempt to attack anyone who wants to discuss this. Your input to this issue is simply not relevant. Your input only has to do with you and nothing about the issue, altho you certainly lend credence to the difficulty of finding a worthwhile opponant to anyone looking for pbem.

[Nomad]

I am one of those 'elitists' I guess. I do like to play WitP via PBEM. I wish the AI was better, but it does do some stupid things. That said, I wiould really like to play that game against the AI and PBEM. I do play and enjoy some games against the AI, but the largest like WitP just do not do well. I started a long time ago playing games by snail mail - these were multiplayer games and were very intertaining. For much of my life I have not lived in places where I could find fellow wargamers, so I had to make a choice between mail or by myself.

I would say that I dislike Oleg making the statements he is. You bought the game and you get to play it the way you want. If you want to discuss why you like to play against the AI then he should butt out if he doesn't have anything useful to say.

As in all things, there is a range of tastes. Some of us do not want to play PBEM for various reasons. Some of us do not want to play agains bad AIs. Some of us, like me, would really like to do both.

My $.02 ( or less ) worth.

[ravinhood]

When Oleg used the word "NOOB" he showed what type of gamer he is. He has the mentality of an 8 year old because that is what they do is go around calling everyone noob who doesn't meet their standards of their pre-puberty attitudes. He shows himself as someone who likes to gloat over his victories and rub it in his opponents faces, now I know why he doesn't like to play against an AI he can't get the satisfaction of gloating vs AI hahah. Probably why he has a hard time finding PBEM opponents. He's the kind that would grunt rush a Civilization game on it's highest difficulty on the tiniest map and declare he beat the AI at the highest difficulty. lol
 
Oleg actually is one of the prime reasons NOT to PBEM as with that attitude vs a newcomer would certainly put them aback and probably push them out of the wargaming niche for keeps. Or at least push them to just play against the AI.
 
Someone else said it above and I also agree that most people don't like to play games they lose at all the time or with snitty snotty gloating opponents. The bottom line is that an AI is always an available willing opponent who doesn't act like an Oleg and can give many gamers a very decent challenge and if the difficulties are programmed correctly they can even give experienced wargamers a challenge.

[junk2drive]

I started playing computer games as a diversion from TV and to unwind after a stressful workday. I avoided PBEM as I had no desire to climb ladders or structure my free time around other people's schedules. IOW I like to play when the mood strikes and not out of guilt that someone is waiting for a turn from me.
 
A few years ago I was playtesting for a designer that requested that I try one design by PBEM as the AI couldn't handle the situation at hand. I took the plunge with someone on a forum that seemed to share my style and thinking. We have been PBEM buddies ever since. I had the fortune of finding another player with similar attributes and only ended our games when I burned out on his game of choice. We still keep in touch though.
 
The trick seems to be to watch the forums for people who seem normal and polite. You should be able to find the people that only play for fun and don't take life and gaming too seriously.
 
The downsides are, real life tends to get in the way, timezone differences can limit the exchange rate, taking on too many games at a time, watching the opponent's turn replay can take too long, etc
 
I've cut back on my PBEM games now, and enjoy playing the AI between emails.

[mikul82]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I am one of those 'elitists' I guess. I do like to play WitP via PBEM. I wish the AI was better, but it does do some stupid things. That said, I wiould really like to play that game against the AI and PBEM. I do play and enjoy some games against the AI, but the largest like WitP just do not do well. I started a long time ago playing games by snail mail - these were multiplayer games and were very intertaining. For much of my life I have not lived in places where I could find fellow wargamers, so I had to make a choice between mail or by myself.

I would say that I dislike Oleg making the statements he is. You bought the game and you get to play it the way you want. If you want to discuss why you like to play against the AI then he should butt out if he doesn't have anything useful to say.

As in all things, there is a range of tastes. Some of us do not want to play PBEM for various reasons. Some of us do not want to play agains bad AIs. Some of us, like me, would really like to do both.

My $.02 ( or less ) worth.

Nah, you don't sound like the "elitist" type... At least not the elitist types I'm thinking of anyway. I think "elitist" is referring to those who, when someone suggests that working on a better AI would make a game more fun, increase its sales, etc, responds with something like "OMG WTF is wrong with you NOOB!?!? You must SUCK at multiplayer LOL!!!"

I simply have no desire to play a 30 minute wargame scenario dragged out over the course of a week because my opponent can only send a couple of turns every other day. That's not fun to me. Neither is playing against a crappy AI, so that really limits the games I play, but I'm happy with the ones I like.

(somewhat OT Rant)
As I said, flight sim forums are being overrun with them ("elitists") as well- woe to those of us who still hold out for a single-player flight sim campaign as good as the original Red Baron one... The game came out in 1990 for the love of goodness, and took up maybe a whole 10MB of disk space, and apparently no one can top the single player experience of that one to this day.

[Brigz]

Been reading this thread and I'm just shaking my head. Who gives a rat's ass who plays email and who plays strictly AI? It's the same unending, unanswerable argument as "do you like hexes or no hexes", "do you like 3D graphics or 2D graphics". It's not a matter of which is better, it's a matter of personal taste. I play both AI and pbem. Having said that, I have to admit, Oleg has some good points about playing a human opponent and I prefer playing another person than the AI. When playing a human opponent I will always play out to the end, but many times playing against the AI is boring and I am more apt to lose interest. Just me, just a matter of personal taste and I hold no measure up to anyone. Vive la differance. (Pardon my French)

Hamster chess does sound pretty interesting though.[;)]

[Zap]

It was'nt supposed to be a thread of I like PBEM(better gaming) compared to Not PBEM(best way to game). That was done by Oleg when he had disdain for my style of presentaion. And revealed that he looks down on players of the AI(only).
Actually I was surprised to see so much venom for my post. Which, gave no reason for the response it got.

Anyhow, From what I understand right now, with my job requirments, I would not make a good PBEM opponent. Since most want continuity of play. I could not set up a strict time to return a turn.

[mikul82]

ORIGINAL: Zap

It was'nt supposed to be a thread of I like PBEM(better gaming) compared to Not PBEM(best way to game). That entered into the thread later.
Anyhow, From what I understand right now, with my job requirments, I would not make a good PBEM opponent. Since most want continuity of play. I could not set up a strict time to return a turn.

As for benefits, the main one to me is being able to play on your own time and not being required to wait on someone else who may need several days between turns. If I want to play for 20 minutes one day, 6 hours the next, 2 hours the day after, and 15 minutes the day after that, I can, and someone else not being able to respond quickly won't cut into my play time at all.

Like I said, I just avoid the games with the really awful AI- In well set up scenarios such as some of those in the Campaign Series, TOAW, and Steel Panthers, I can still sometimes lose, although I wouldn't consider myself a wargaming master by any means.

[Frido1207]

ORIGINAL: Zap

... with my job requirments, I would not make a good PBEM opponent. Since most want continuity of play. I could not set up a strict time to return a turn.

That´s exactly why I hesitate to try a PBEM game & prefer to play against the AI. And therefore I´m also mainly interessted in a good AI opponent.

[06 Maestro]

There is a big variable for me in the choice of to AI or PBEM. The big factor is just how well I know the game. I'm not just talking about learning how to play the game, but also to understand, and to be able to anticipate the AI. After many hundreds of hours playing the same game against the AI, it simply becomes too predictable, simple to beat, and boring. At that point, it is time for a new game, or a good PBEM opponent. There are apparently many players that never (or seldom) have that situation arise, as they play many different games interspersed with one another. I see nothing wrong with enjoying many different games at the same time, in which case playing solely against the AI is challenging and rewarding. I have found myself in that situation recently-the AI in several games I play are good enough to keep me on my toes.

I have played many PBEM games through the years, of which maybe a quarter are recorded on a ladder. I love a good PBEM game as a human player is generally much more cunning than the AI I have become accustomed to. It is also a good opportunity to meet interesting people and to strike up friendships. I have corresponded with some of my old opponents for years on a somewhat regular basis, even if we don't play the same games anymore. I have also had some opponents that don't say a word other than hi and thanks-that's OK too.

While it is true that there are some down sides to PBEM, I have had very few problems. I have had a couple of players quit when things weren't going their way, and one guy was likely cheating. My bad experiences would not amount to even 1% of my PBEM time, so I do not consider it as a factor in deciding weather to PBEM or not. There are also "ladder whores"; it always seemed to me that is was just some sort of a joke with most guys-although a few would go too far. Many players would not report a "victory" against a noob, and in fact would look at it as a privileged to teach an interested player something of the game of choice. There is also the factor of "real life" which will interfere with a regular schedule of turn rate-especially on bigger scenarios/games. I have completed games in a day, or a year-all are all good.

I have a couple of RTS games I would love to play against humans, but with those there is the scheduling factor. For my reality, those will largely be played against the AI until I can retire (which so far, has been just fine).


So, the bottom line is that both ways of playing are just fine given your current gaming tastes. If you love a particular game and have mastered it and still wish to play it, then PBEM is definitely worth looking into.

[mikul82]

I should add that I do play PBEM every now and then and find it fun, however there's no way I'd buy a game SOLELY for PBEM play- I mainly just play single-player.

I'd really enjoy live one on one play with small scenarios though, being able to watch your opponent take their turn, chat with each other about games, history, business, or whatever, all while kicking back in my computer chair with some coffee.  It's the detachment I feel toward PBEM, occasional turns with little chatter otherwise in each email, that really turns me off of it.

[ravinhood]

Thing is Maestro you can play 100 games against the same "human" opponent and reach that same knowledge and boredom. As humans we like things that are NEW...look how you all drool over the anticipation of a newly released game and it's not a day after release for a lot of gamers looking for the next NEW release and/or starting the usual WISHLIST thread on EVERY game. lol I see a couple of people here I think just buy games to be buying them to perhaps be the first to comment on them and then they are off into some other thread or website. But, with that human psychology I think that's why some prefer PBEM or Online opponents, they NEED NEW opponents so they can get a fix of something different each game. It all boils down to the same though, you can play against a lousy human opponent or a lousy AI or you can get lucky and play against a good/great opponent and also play some games with good/great AI's. I personally think they balance out. There's no perfect opponent human or AI.
 
Also chatting while trying to play a wargame can interupt my concentration of my turn. Last thing I want is someone chatterboxing while I'm trying to think out my turn. Thus, for some of us even face to face encounters via TCP/IP must be sort of anti social. I prefer to talk about the game and history of the game and whatnot AFTER or BEFORE the actual game.
 
I play a lot of Guild Wars PVP and I hear my chat box ding ding dinging all the time during the fight, I have very little or no time to read text during these heated fast paced bouts, though occassionally I glance at them and usually they are just two guys mouthing off at each other about their e-peens and mothers. lol

[cdbeck]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
So lets say you play chess. But you're too shy, hate losing, socially awkward or whatever, and you NEVER play chess vs other humans. That's fine that's your choice.

So you play chess vs your hamster, for the same reasons you prefer AI in PC games - hamster is always there, he never quits, he never complains etc etc blah blah, insert any of the "pro-only-AI" arguments here (they are all applicable to your good ole hamster).

That's fine too. Enjoy your hamster chess my friend. The point when it's no longer "fine" is when you post on the web board asking other chess players to *justify* your choice of playing vs your hamster. I am sorry my friend but if you do that you only can get ridicule from me.

Some AI players won't even stop there. They write angry letters to Union of hamster breeders asking - no, demanding - that they produce better, smarter hamsters so they can play more challenging games of hamster chess with them. They complain that today's hamsters just won't cut it. Yes I find that even more ridicolous.

You might as well face it - hamsters don't make challenging chess partners! That's all there is to it.

Might I remind you Oleg, Deep Blue beat Kasparov. These rants about "AI being worse than a human" (which implies that AI is for "n00bs" and "dumb-folk") are old and tired. AI can, and has, been produced that outpaces and out-thinks many human players. Properly done AI can think through permutations, think more moves ahead, and "crunch numbers" in odds and casualties that infinitely faster than the human brain. Get off that PBEM high horse and be realistic.

It is a good thing that solo-players have demanded faster, better, and smarter AI. Many of the "bad" AI's out there do not come from overly complex games or "too many variables" but from a lack of developer resources and AI development time. Thus, more of both means AI that comes close to or overcomes, human calculating capacity. Because most wargames are really hex maps (or the like) and number based rules, the AI for wargames should be able to shine far better than RTS or RPG type AI, were AI must emulate unpredictable creatures acting on instinct or emotion.

I think your metaphorical hamster has been, and often is, smarter than you (and most of us) when playing a game.

SoM