Admiral's Edition General Thread

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

When the arrivals of reinforcements show up on map they are briefly dsiplayed on the screen, then no additional record of them can be found. Will there be a record made?

Since at least the last patch (maybe before - I forget) there has been a record of them in the Operations Report. Just skip to the bottom if you don't want to read the rest of it. The unit arriving and the base of arrival are both given. It's been a great help. I'm sure it will be to you too, now that you know about it! [:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

I've a question as I've seen no mention of the subject yet. Will there be regional force minimums like Japan's situation in China (threat of partisans) and Manchuria (force strength minimum) throughout the map to reflect local and regional political and security pressures? For example, will there be a minimum force level that must be maintained by Allies in rear areas such as Canada, West Coast USA, Panama, Alaska, India, Middle East and for Japan in its' conquered territories? Will this force level extend to not only LCU strength but to air and naval strength levels as well?

[Ron Saueracker]

I proposed this during Alpha and I believe Erik Rutins liked the idea so I need to ask...Will merchant ships be required to be sent to offmap pools in order to facilitate the arrival of supply, oil, fuel etc at the major map edge bases? Also, will AKs/APs/CVEs etc be required in the same pools to allow for the arrival of LCUs and Air Units? Will warships be required in these pools as escorts? Given the fact that many Allied merchants and warships are included in the game for the duration despite only having served in the Pacific briefly I figured this would be an ideal way to both have them available in the game but keep their use along more historical lines.

[Andy Mac]

No is the short answer although modders will be able to add them.

The issue is that they would need to change over time the real pressure point in India for example was late 42 after that internal dissent to a large extent died away and the forces committed to internal security were released for other duties.

i.e. most of the Indian filed army is tied down partially in keeping order partially in external securtiy (i.e. 19th Div at madras)

reflecting this type of thing in a sensible set of garrison requirements when we dont have the ability to change them over time is difficult.

For CW nations we went with a different approach (similar to stock with all the compromises that encompases) which is a restricted India command for which PP's need to be paid to release field force formations reflecting over time the reduction in 'home front' pressure

Pretty much all Indian army forces at start belong to India command and will need to be bought out.

Other forces which should be on map we decided not to include i.e. in India 2 full Divisions of frontier troops are ignored (broadly Waziristan Div is on map static at Karachi, Peshawar and Punjab Frontier Divs only appear if certain conditions are met other paramilitary or internal security forces that are included are either static as part of fort type units in major cities or disband later int he war when these forces were used to round out Indian Field Divs.

The one advantage we have over stock is that in certain circumstances (a Japanese invasion of North India) these forces can and do apear to contest

Canada I took a diffetent approach all LCU's in Canada are static and even if PP's are paid cannot be moved unless the Candaian Reserve squad is upgraded (this is to reflect the fact that Canandian Militia were not intended to serve overseas)

In case of an invasion a one off injection of mobile squads makes all Canandian Inf Units mobile but in the abscence of that at most Canada will have 2 Bde Groups released and mobile by the end of the war (only one if an allied player decides to play funny buggers with the HK garrison)

NZ Different again as its more on the front line more of the NZ Militia is on map than other nations  some still only arrives after an invasion  but the seperation of NZ and Aus Squads means that NZ replacements are a lot thinner on the ground than in stock (reflecting lower manpower and need to keep 2nd Div up to strength broadly its hard to see NZ units being a major offensive force they can just about keep 3rd Div in the field without cannibalisation but heavy or even moderate losses would make the Bde Groups of that force combat inneffective.)

In the US a lot of forces are set to West Coast at start finding forces to garrison SLOC is going to be a real challenge for the allies now - PP's are going to be thin on the ground and wholesale rescue of forces in SEA is going to have consequences for ability to secure SWPAC.

As for garrison requirements on Japan in conquered areas no there will not as currently defined be any requirements

Andy

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I proposed this during Alpha and I believe Erik Rutins liked the idea so I need to ask...Will merchant ships be required to be sent to offmap pools in order to facilitate the arrival of supply, oil, fuel etc at the major map edge bases? Also, will AKs/APs/CVEs etc be required in the same pools to allow for the arrival of LCUs and Air Units? Will warships be required in these pools as escorts? Given the fact that many Allied merchants and warships are included in the game for the duration despite only having served in the Pacific briefly I figured this would be an ideal way to both have them available in the game but keep their use along more historical lines.

Hi Ron!

Are you in Canada or Greece??

There is no requirement to have merchant ships in off-map boxes to facilitate supply generation there. The supplies just appear at the designated off-map bases. They are assumed to be shipped to the off-map bases by "other" (Atlantic) transports that are not in the game. These "other" transports are also what are assumed to be carrying LCUs and air units that are directly transferred between the off-map bases themselves (although you can also use regular TFs to do this if you want to).

But you will need to find some transports to ship supplies etc onto the main map. That is something that wasn't necessary in stock. For example, the main map edge supply points for the British are Capetown (for supplies) and Abadan (for fuel). Ships will have to be sent to these bases to get the supplies/fuel and ship it to where it is required (e.g. supplies and fuel to India, fuel to Australia). TFs will also have to be used to move LCUs and air units between off-map boxes and the main map.

Andrew

[Andy Mac]

No no off map pools BUT most CW reinforcements arrive at either London, Aden, Capetown or Mombasa and ships are needed to transport them and warships to escort them.

Also the biggest allied supply source in the West is at Capetown to keep India and to some extend Aus /NZ supplied a large proportion of allied transport capability will be required permanently on these routes.

Re availability of ships thats a naval OOB issue I don't know how they fixed that one.

[Andy Mac]

Nice to see we are consistant when our posts cross !!!!

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Nice to see we are consistant when our posts cross !!!!

Yes I just managed to beat you for one reply this time!

But just to clarify something - it is not necessary to use ships to transfer LCUs and air units directly between off-map bases. Non-represented transports in the Atlantic are assumed to be doing this (just as in the current WitP where you don't use TFs to transfer units from the US West Coast to CBI).

Andrew

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

How about rather than paying when they unload, the player pays PPs to load the restricted units, but gets a rebate when they unload at a same HQ base.

That way if they move the unit somewhere else or hold it on the ships, they have paid the PPs just as if they switched HQs. Otherwise they can make the short inter-island hop and get the points back relatively quickly, freeing up more transfers. This would limit the rate of transfer, but probably not too dramatically. If the transports are sunk, the player should probably get the PPs back, but not if the unit is unloaded somewhere else and dies in combat.

Sounds simple except for the fact that you now have to create a data slot for each and every unit to track the points which would require even greater system resources to process the turn.

Drat! Guess I had to know that anything that seemed like such an "elegant solution" would trip over reality....

Actually you wouldn't necessarily have to track the PP costs in the data. You might be able to provide the correct PP "refund", when the unit lands, by reusing the same formula that is used to calculate the initial PP cost. Assuming that this could be made to work it is actually an elegant solution as you say. Too bad we didn't think of it earlier!

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: treespider


Sounds simple except for the fact that you now have to create a data slot for each and every unit to track the points which would require even greater system resources to process the turn.

Drat! Guess I had to know that anything that seemed like such an "elegant solution" would trip over reality....

Actually you wouldn't necessarily have to track the PP costs in the data. You might be able to provide the correct PP "refund", when the unit lands, by reusing the same formula that is used to calculate the initial PP cost. Assuming that this could be made to work it is actually an elegant solution as you say. Too bad we didn't think of it earlier!

I believe you would still need a "bit" indicating that a unit had been changed. In addition how would this be monitored over time? In other words every time I land a unit at a base what determines whether I get the "rebate" or not? How will the code determine whether I am a purchased unit or not?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

No is the short answer although modders will be able to add them.

The issue is that they would need to change over time the real pressure point in India for example was late 42 after that internal dissent to a large extent died away and the forces committed to internal security were released for other duties.

i.e. most of the Indian filed army is tied down partially in keeping order partially in external securtiy (i.e. 19th Div at madras)

reflecting this type of thing in a sensible set of garrison requirements when we dont have the ability to change them over time is difficult.

For CW nations we went with a different approach (similar to stock with all the compromises that encompases) which is a restricted India command for which PP's need to be paid to release field force formations reflecting over time the reduction in 'home front' pressure

Pretty much all Indian army forces at start belong to India command and will need to be bought out.

Other forces which should be on map we decided not to include i.e. in India 2 full Divisions of frontier troops are ignored (broadly Waziristan Div is on map static at Karachi, Peshawar and Punjab Frontier Divs only appear if certain conditions are met other paramilitary or internal security forces that are included are either static as part of fort type units in major cities or disband later int he war when these forces were used to round out Indian Field Divs.

The one advantage we have over stock is that in certain circumstances (a Japanese invasion of North India) these forces can and do apear to contest

Canada I took a diffetent approach all LCU's in Canada are static and even if PP's are paid cannot be moved unless the Candaian Reserve squad is upgraded (this is to reflect the fact that Canandian Militia were not intended to serve overseas)

In case of an invasion a one off injection of mobile squads makes all Canandian Inf Units mobile but in the abscence of that at most Canada will have 2 Bde Groups released and mobile by the end of the war (only one if an allied player decides to play funny buggers with the HK garrison)
NZ Different again as its more on the front line more of the NZ Militia is on map than other nations  some still only arrives after an invasion  but the seperation of NZ and Aus Squads means that NZ replacements are a lot thinner on the ground than in stock (reflecting lower manpower and need to keep 2nd Div up to strength broadly its hard to see NZ units being a major offensive force they can just about keep 3rd Div in the field without cannibalisation but heavy or even moderate losses would make the Bde Groups of that force combat inneffective.)

In the US a lot of forces are set to West Coast at start finding forces to garrison SLOC is going to be a real challenge for the allies now - PP's are going to be thin on the ground and wholesale rescue of forces in SEA is going to have consequences for ability to secure SWPAC.

As for garrison requirements on Japan in conquered areas no there will not as currently defined be any requirements

Andy

Hey Andy! I'm a wee bit concerned about making all the CDN units static. Canadian units garrisoned many Aleutian islands in 42/43 and were involved in the amphibious landing at Kiska in Aug 43. As well, an entire division, the 6th I believe, was formed and earmarked for the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands in 45.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Canada I took a diffetent approach all LCU's in Canada are static and even if PP's are paid cannot be moved unless the Candaian Reserve squad is upgraded (this is to reflect the fact that Canandian Militia were not intended to serve overseas)

Hey Andy! I'm a wee bit concerned about making all the CDN units static. Canadian units garrisoned many Aleutian islands in 42/43 and were involved in the amphibious landing at Kiska in Aug 43. As well, an entire division, the 6th I believe, was formed and earmarked for the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands in 45.

It "all" depends on what Andy meant by "all" - does it mean "all" or simply "most".

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Canada I took a diffetent approach all LCU's in Canada are static and even if PP's are paid cannot be moved unless the Candaian Reserve squad is upgraded (this is to reflect the fact that Canandian Militia were not intended to serve overseas)

Hey Andy! I'm a wee bit concerned about making all the CDN units static. Canadian units garrisoned many Aleutian islands in 42/43 and were involved in the amphibious landing at Kiska in Aug 43. As well, an entire division, the 6th I believe, was formed and earmarked for the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands in 45.

It "all" depends on what Andy meant by "all" - does it mean "all" or simply "most".

True enough![:)]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I proposed this during Alpha and I believe Erik Rutins liked the idea so I need to ask...Will merchant ships be required to be sent to offmap pools in order to facilitate the arrival of supply, oil, fuel etc at the major map edge bases? Also, will AKs/APs/CVEs etc be required in the same pools to allow for the arrival of LCUs and Air Units? Will warships be required in these pools as escorts? Given the fact that many Allied merchants and warships are included in the game for the duration despite only having served in the Pacific briefly I figured this would be an ideal way to both have them available in the game but keep their use along more historical lines.

Hi Ron!

Are you in Canada or Greece??

There is no requirement to have merchant ships in off-map boxes to facilitate supply generation there. The supplies just appear at the designated off-map bases. They are assumed to be shipped to the off-map bases by "other" (Atlantic) transports that are not in the game. These "other" transports are also what are assumed to be carrying LCUs and air units that are directly transferred between the off-map bases themselves (although you can also use regular TFs to do this if you want to).

But you will need to find some transports to ship supplies etc onto the main map. That is something that wasn't necessary in stock. For example, the main map edge supply points for the British are Capetown (for supplies) and Abadan (for fuel). Ships will have to be sent to these bases to get the supplies/fuel and ship it to where it is required (e.g. supplies and fuel to India, fuel to Australia). TFs will also have to be used to move LCUs and air units between off-map boxes and the main map.

Andrew

OK. Cool. [:D] Close enough. These off map bases sound like just the ticket to drastically improve the logistical model and tie up much merchant shipping previously used as endless amphibious assets and, cringe, as expendable pickets[8|][:-].

Oh...in Canada for a month or so over the holidays. Lemon egg drop soup for Christmas dinner was enough of a turnoff to get me back here in Canada for a bit.

[Andy Mac]

Re Cananda

The two Bns in HK are mobile at start.

I think the Rocky Mountain Ranger Bn is also mobile

And Canada gets enough mobile squad replacements to free up a reinforced Bde Group per year (2 in 44 if they are willing to use obsolete 1941 Squads)

So they get enough to provide a mobile Aleutian force of histroical dimentions as long as they dont evac the 2 Bns from HK for use elsewhere doing that will add 6 months onto the time it takes to free a Bde

As I said if invaded quickly the whole Canandian ORBAT becomes mobile including the plains militia Bdes

6th Canadian Div arrives in late 45 as part of the Commonwealth X Corps (Tiger Force) and uses a special Commonwealth (US TOE) Rifle Squad) basically I have assumed the whole Div is a US style Div with US equipment and everything so the squads have the same stats as a US Div as does 3rd Brit Div (only 1st RM Div is a non US TOE although even that force uses US equipment)

Andy

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

And Canada gets enough mobile squad replacements to free up a reinforced Bde Group per year (2 in 44 if they are willing to use obsolete 1941 Squads)

Andy this sounds great. In current code it's not possible - you can only turn replacements On/Off. Would you give us a hint of how it would be done in AE? [:)]

[Andy Mac]

Ah you still cannot but you get 6 Can mobile squads per month in 42 and 43 (assuming no invasion) plus a few from the one off war mobilisation draft (oh and the independent 1st Irish Fusiliers of Cananda Bn arrives mobile in case the allies need to garrison somewhere offshore)

A standard Can Inf Bde needs 108 so roughly 1 bde or 3 Bns become mobile per Year.

So 1 in 42, 1 in 43 and 1 in 44 all from the 41 Squads (there is no end date yet again something we wanted but ran out time for land devices)

i.e. max c 2 bdes become mobile.

In 43 there is a new Can 43 Squad becomes available with PIAT etc so you get 10 per month of those so technically two Bdes could be released to be mobile.

Hence by the end of 44 a Maximium of c 4 Bdes could be made mobile well there are only 5 regular and (4 plains Militia) in Canadian ORBAT plus a few Bns.

Just because they are mobile you still need to pay PP's to release them for overseas service but what this is trying to do is to reflect the manpower issues in Canada and the legal position by preventing wholesale stripping of Canada.

I mean if I am committing a unit to combat I wantr a reserve of devices = 20% of its TOE if it is going to sustain operations and we all know bdes are piss poor at sustained operations for that you need Divisions so with the limits imposed I would assume no more than 2 max Canadian Bdes serving overseas. You could probably by midd 44 pull out a 3rd but I wouldnt want them to be in serious combat and expect them to have bottom.

Same with the Kiwis just keeping 3rd NZ Div (or its Bde Groups after the Div disbands) operational is going to be tough there is no depth to the replacement pool which makes sustained operations tough .

This will also be a real concern for the british based units where depth of pool (or lack thereon) should impose some real caution on allied players.

You simply cannot afford a 12 month long grinding match and expect to have battle ready units anymore.

Andy

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl





Drat! Guess I had to know that anything that seemed like such an "elegant solution" would trip over reality....

Actually you wouldn't necessarily have to track the PP costs in the data. You might be able to provide the correct PP "refund", when the unit lands, by reusing the same formula that is used to calculate the initial PP cost. Assuming that this could be made to work it is actually an elegant solution as you say. Too bad we didn't think of it earlier!

I believe you would still need a "bit" indicating that a unit had been changed. In addition how would this be monitored over time? In other words every time I land a unit at a base what determines whether I get the "rebate" or not? How will the code determine whether I am a purchased unit or not?

You could use the HQ assignment of the embarked unit. If it is assigned to a restricted HQ then you need to check the hex it is landing on. If the LCU is landing in its designated "zone" then you get the refund. To make this work you would need to define "HQ zones" in the map data, or just do it if the LCU lands at a base and the base is also assigned to the HQ, as in the original suggestion.

Andrew

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown



Actually you wouldn't necessarily have to track the PP costs in the data. You might be able to provide the correct PP "refund", when the unit lands, by reusing the same formula that is used to calculate the initial PP cost. Assuming that this could be made to work it is actually an elegant solution as you say. Too bad we didn't think of it earlier!

I believe you would still need a "bit" indicating that a unit had been changed. In addition how would this be monitored over time? In other words every time I land a unit at a base what determines whether I get the "rebate" or not? How will the code determine whether I am a purchased unit or not?

You could use the HQ assignment of the embarked unit. If it is assigned to a restricted HQ then you need to check the hex it is landing on. If the LCU is landing in its designated "zone" then you get the refund. To make this work you would need to define "HQ zones" in the map data, or just do it if the LCU lands at a base and the base is also assigned to the HQ, as in the original suggestion.

Andrew

Happy New Year!!! A few glasses of wine and a new year and I see potential here...only allow the refund if the unit lands at a base assigned to the restricted HQ.

Is there potential for abuse if a unit is divided across several ships and lands at several different ports...is there a net increase in PP costs for a divided unit? In other words a whole unit may be worth 10 pp yet it is load onto 11 ships and its fragments have a net PP cost of 11. So the player would pay 10 points to load the unit then recoup then send those ships to several different ports and recoup 11 points.

Another potential pitfall...in AE it is likely that units will not be loaded in one day. How do you track whether a fragment has been paid for if the entire unit has not been loaded in one turn?

[Andy Mac]

Itas all these reasons that turned PP and retricted command reform into the to hard to tinker with section if we were going to do it it involves a total re write and therefore ended up in the too hard category !!!

Thats whys its broadly the same as stock but with a few more unrestricted commands aropund to enhance player control