Not to PBEM

[BAL]

I was going to post something to the effect thtat you guys really need to lighten up but then I saw this...
 

Been reading this thread and I'm just shaking my head. Who gives a rat's ass who plays email and who plays strictly AI?

 
...which sums up my thoughts exactly.  Do any of you guys actually enjoy the games you're playing?

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: BAL
Do any of you guys actually enjoy the games you're playing?

Yes.

But to be more accurate, I enjoy the games I am PBEM-ing [:D]

=

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: BAL
Do any of you guys actually enjoy the games you're playing?

Yes.

But to be more accurate, I enjoy the games I am PBEM-ing [:D]

=

[:D][:D]My sentiments also-very well put.

[freeboy]

I see your rats ass, and raise you a cats tail

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I see your rats ass, and raise you a cats tail

I guess that leaves it up to me...I'll raise a dog's leg...[:D]

[freeboy]

no silly its a hotdog...
call.. full house

[ravinhood]

Traps them all....sorry....read em and weep....Royal Straight Flush (Clubs)

[freeboy]

only in poker, we are playing make up your own rules matrix style.. so on friday it is.. oh never mind that darned date line screws us up on that one!

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Oleg's post is one of the reasons I don't play PBEM. There's a certain elitism that some PBEMers attach to themselves, for whatever unknown reason. They thumb their noses at playing against the AI, as they perceive it as being "beneath" them.
.....
So, if you like it, fine. If you don't, that's fine, too.

Absolutely, that's fine. Playing solely against AI is perfectly fine if that's your choice.

However, asking for people to provide you with *justification* for that on a wargaming forum is stupid IMO.

AI is second class opponent, in some, more complex games it's third class opponent, in some games it's no challenge AT ALL. Of course people who play frist class opponents (ie other people) will laugh at you if you play second class opponents and insist you're doing fine and/or taking it (the AI) seriously.

Personally I find people who complain about AI in mega complex strategic games like WITP, EiA etc - ridicolous. If you even *expect* the AI to provide strategic challenge in games as complex as those you don't know a frist thing abpout games, AI, software etc.

Yeah well sorry if I seem "elitist" to you, I think I am just being brutally realistic, sorry if you don't like Real World (it's a cruel place I know, playing vs AI is certaily easier)

Oleg, it is decidely unsettling to discover just how misguided you truly are.

You might want to reassess the criteria by which you differentiate between first and second class opponents.

1. A first class opponet is the one who is there to play against you when the whim to play settles upon you. AI wins hands down!

2. A first class opponet is one who won't ruin your game experience by engaging in some idiotic "gamey" exploit of the mechanics. Again, AI wins hands down!

3. A first class opponent is one who is ready to quict when your are and not a minute before. AI wins hands down

4. A first class opponent6 doesn't keep you waiting 3 weeks to play your next turn because they are too busy to be bothered to honor their committment to you. Once again, the AI wins hands down.

The only thing human opponets do better than AIs is provide challenge. Now, this is certainly enough to make some choose them over AIs, but it is by no means a justification for the deluded sense of superiority displayed by so many in these forums.

[ravinhood]

Amen brother Hans you tell them elitists somesobeaches what for.

[Fred98]

Here is a quote taken from another wargaming forum. The person is seeking tactical advice in a wargame game he is playing.

ORIGINAL:
I'm a war game veteran, having played everything from the operational art of war, to some of John Tiller's original games from Talensoft such as Gettysburg, to Hearts of Iron II, and I usually crush the AI, so I'm really enjoying this game's challenge.

I'm playing the……..

It is phrases such as the words above in blue text, that we PBEM'ers see often on wargaming forums, that leads to Oleg making the comments he did.

In other words, you started it, not him.

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[sprior]

I like blue, you like green. You'll never convince me green is better than blue nor I convince you that blue is better than green, so why bother? Just enjoy what you enjoy and I'll enjoy what I enjoy.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Here is a quote taken from another wargaming forum. The person is seeking tactical advice in a wargame game he is playing.

ORIGINAL:
I'm a war game veteran, having played everything from the operational art of war, to some of John Tiller's original games from Talensoft such as Gettysburg, to Hearts of Iron II, and I usually crush the AI, so I'm really enjoying this game's challenge.

I'm playing the……..

It is phrases such as the words above in blue text, that we PBEM'ers see often on wargaming forums, that leads to Oleg making the comments he did.

In other words, you started it, not him.

-

So what? Was that statement or a similiar one made by the op? Why would that statement require a response? What's it to you?

In other words, Oleg started it, not him.

[ravinhood]

Sorry Joe, but, ONE person writing that they CRUSHED the AI (usually) doesn't mean that every AI is bad. It just means that ONE particular person was better at playing it and I'll bet you $1 to $100 he used GAMEY exploits beating most of them. It's like that ole Civilization exploit again...play ONE AI opponent on the tiniest map on the hardest difficulty and grunt rush over with a warrior and stomp it....oh boy I beat the hardest difficulty AI hahaha, that my friend is a GAMEY EXPLOIT and is not playing the AI fairly. Thus, most likely that is what your ranter was ranting about. How he crushes the AI using his gamey exploits. Just LIKE human opponents there's some good AI's out there and also just like HUMAN opponents there's some sorry AI's out there, but, as I've said before you CAN ADJUST AI's in most games to be more challenging.....but, sorry, when you have a DOPE of a wargamers who suks at playing a particular game there are no SLIDERS or BUTTONS to upgrade his performance lol. AI's RULE and PBEM is for the MINORITY

[Joram]

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

It would be interesting to note how many of the 'AI only' brigade started their wargaming careers with computer wargames as opposed to board wargames. For myself, I cut my wargaming teeth on boardgames but moved to computer games in the late 80's - but I generally am not interested in a game that is AI only because it doesn't feel right to me; not being able to take it that step further and play it like a board game with another player is usually a deal killer. But to each their own. Ultimately these games are for individual entertainment.

cheers

I guess I would belong to the "AI" brigade (do we get t-shirts?) and I am one who started off on board wargames. I still play them on occasion but for the most part my job and life require me to stick to computer games. Veldor summed it up pretty nicely. And I agree, post like Oleg's is the very reason I don't care to even get into PBEM that much. I also think the excuse of "just PBEM for a challenge" is a lazy one. Not everyone can do that and as I said in another thread, poor AI in wargames is what is going to keep this a niche market.

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Sorry Joe, but, ONE person writing that they CRUSHED the AI

You didn't read. Its not one person. It is common. And it is the basis for Olga's original comment.

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[Fred98]

This thread has so far gone 7 days - back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
 
Much like a PBEM game [8D]
 
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[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Joram
I guess I would belong to the "AI" brigade (do we get t-shirts?) and I am one who started off on board wargames. I still play them on occasion but for the most part my job and life require me to stick to computer games. Veldor summed it up pretty nicely. And I agree, post like Oleg's is the very reason I don't care to even get into PBEM that much. I also think the excuse of "just PBEM for a challenge" is a lazy one. Not everyone can do that and as I said in another thread, poor AI in wargames is what is going to keep this a niche market.

If "posts like Oleg's" are truely "the very reason you don't care to even get into PBEM that much" I pity you and also wonder how you get thru life with attitude like that? Do you start crying when someone disagrees with you? Leave the room?

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

1. A first class opponet is the one who is there to play against you when the whim to play settles upon you. AI wins hands down!

2. A first class opponet is one who won't ruin your game experience by engaging in some idiotic "gamey" exploit of the mechanics. Again, AI wins hands down!

3. A first class opponent is one who is ready to quict when your are and not a minute before. AI wins hands down

4. A first class opponent6 doesn't keep you waiting 3 weeks to play your next turn because they are too busy to be bothered to honor their committment to you. Once again, the AI wins hands down.

The only thing human opponets do better than AIs is provide challenge. Now, this is certainly enough to make some choose them over AIs, but it is by no means a justification for the deluded sense of superiority displayed by so many in these forums.

Dude I find your arguments downright ridicolous. So the AI is always available and that makes it the "first class opponent"??? That's exactly my hamster argument I used in one of the previous posts in this thread (go search I can't be bothered to quote myself).

So my hamster is always there when I need a game of chess and I guess by extension of your logic it makes the funny little animal a "first class chess opponent"? Better than Kasparov? Hell that annoying Kasparov guy might make me wait for days, no weeks, to schedule a match vs him! He sucks! Hamster rules!

No, the human is always the first class opponent, always, except when measured against other (better, smarter, more experienced) human. When compared vs the AI in wargames human is always the first class. That's what games are made for, to measure your skill vs other people.

Yes of course playing humans means some compromises have to be made, you'll have to - oh the horror - wait for your opponent's turns, deal with misunderstandings, solve the gamey situations, deal with foreign languages etc. However, in my many many thousands of PBEM hours I never had any serious problems. I certainly had FAR less frustrating experiences than when playing the brain dead AI. I find dealing with human-related problems (waiting, quitters, etc.) way WAY less frustrating than dealing with the brain dead digital hamster AI.

I'd rather wait 3 weeks for my opponent to get back from the vacation than waste my life playing the (literally) brain dead non entity. Besides, most of my opponents are also virtual buddies, so we, you know, like, TALK in mails, discuss things and generally have a good time. Even a time spent away from the game is not entirely wasted. With AI, even the time spent playing is basically wasted, in interaction with the.... nothingness.....

[bradfordkay]

"and I still have a collection of many 100's dating from 1967 on. I wonder how many of the PBEM crowd have even seen, much less played, a wargame from that period."

Well... I started playing board wargames (AH Afrika Korps) in 1969 and have been addicted to wargaming ever since. In my high school and college years I had several friends with whom I could play but in later years people moved off and I was reduced to playing with myself. (Hey, I even tried combining all the Victory Games Fleet series into one massive cold war simulation and the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War games into one massive simulation of Lee's campaigns). I wore out my ASL manual, just playing games solo.

In the mid '90's I discovered computer wargames (yeah, a late comer) and was thrilled at first. Carriers at War and Steel Panthers in particular provided decent games against the AI and I could play when I wanted to and set it aside for weeks if necessary with nary a complaint by my opponent.

However, as you may surmise from what I've written, I really like detailed games, especially naval ones. Uncommon Valor came out and I was in heaven. Two years later I was one of the first to buy WITP. It's definitely in a game the size and depth of WITP that the AI opponent is stretched thin. After two and a half years of playing against the AI (multiple restarts due to patches and mods being released) I had to give up on the AI. It always seems to bog down, no matter how hard I handicap myself.

A few years ago I was driven away from PBEM play (at the time it was Bombing of the Reich) by an old college buddy, who nagged incessantly for turns. My life schedule means that there will be periods of time when I can't play a game, and this scared me away from WITP PBEM, since forum members were always complaining about not getting turns back from their opponents.

Last winter I decided to give WITP PBEM a try and advertised for an opponent who is willing to play an historical style and slow paced game. I lucked out in that a veteran WITPer (it was one of the forum members who was on my short list of those I was hoping would respond) agreed to the game and we've played far more turns than I expected. I still play UV against the AI, and occasionally fire up WITP solo, but I know that the latter is doomed to come to a crashing halt mid war.