Tinkering with Treaties...Again

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GaryChildress
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Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

I think a cool mod would be one based upon a clash between this Japanese Navy http://www.geocities.com/alt_naval3/index.htm and an American and British Navy, all of which produce just about everything they can under the first and second London Treaties with just a little tinkering with ONLY the 1930 London treaty. Of course the Japanese cheat just a little on tonnage and will use a lot of "shadow" ships (ships which can be converted to more useful ones relatively easily when treaties expire).

In this mod I propose to make 1 modest change by changing a date by 1 year and a second more ambitious change by changing one clause to read just a little differently.



1930 LONDON TREATY BEFORE TINKERING:
ANNEX I
RULES FOR REPLACEMENT



Section I

Except as provided in Section III of this Annex and Part III of the present Treaty, a vessel shall not be replaced before it becomes "over-age". A vessel shall be deemed to be "over-age" when the following number of years have elapsed since the date of its completion:


(a) For a surface vessel exceeding 3,000 tons (3,048 metric tons) but not exceeding 10,000 tons (10,160 metric tons) standard displacement:


(i) If laid down before 1 January 1920: 16 years;


(ii) If laid down after 31 December 1919: 20 years.


(b) For a surface vessel not exceeding 3,000 tons (3,048 metric tons) standard displacement:


(i) If laid down before 1 January 1921: 12 years;


(ii) If laid down after 31 December 1920: 16 years.


(c) For a submarine: 13 years.


The keels of replacement tonnage shall not be laid down more than three years before the year in which the vessel to be replaced becomes "over-age"; but this period is reduced to two years in the case of any replacement surface vessel not exceeding 3,000 tons (3,048 metric tons) standards displacement.


The right of replacement is not lost by delay in laying down replacement tonnage.

1930 LONDON TREATY AFTER TINKERING:
ANNEX I
RULES FOR REPLACEMENT



Section I

Except as provided in Section III of this Annex and Part III of the present Treaty, a vessel shall not be replaced before it becomes "over-age". A vessel shall be deemed to be "over-age" when the following number of years have elapsed since the date of its being laid down:


(a) For a surface vessel exceeding 3,000 tons (3,048 metric tons) but not exceeding 10,000 tons (10,160 metric tons) standard displacement:


(i) If laid down before 1 January 1921: 16 years;


(ii) If laid down after 31 December 1919: 20 years.


(b) For a surface vessel not exceeding 3,000 tons (3,048 metric tons) standard displacement:


(i) If laid down before 1 January 1921: 12 years;


(ii) If laid down after 31 December 1920: 16 years.


(c) For a submarine: 13 years.


The keels of replacement tonnage shall not be laid down more than three years before the year in which the vessel to be replaced becomes "over-age"; but this period is reduced to two years in the case of any replacement surface vessel not exceeding 3,000 tons (3,048 metric tons) standards displacement.


The right of replacement is not lost by delay in laying down replacement tonnage.


What this basically means is that all the following ships will be considered obsolete (and rightly so!) and therefore replaceable by 1936 (The year of the second London Treaty).

UK Hawkins Class CAs:
Effingham
Frobisher
Hawkins

UK "D" Class CLs:
Danae
Dauntless
Delhi
Despatch
Diomede
Dragon
Dunedin
Durban

UK Caledon Class CLs:
Caledon
Calypso
Caradoc

UK Ceres Class CLs:
Cardiff
Ceres
Coventry
Curacao
Curlew

UK Carlisle Class CLs:
Cairo
Calcutta
Capetown
Carlisle
Columbo

UK "E" Class CLs:
Emerald
Enterprise

US Omaha Class CLs:
Omaha
Milwaukee
Raleigh
Detroit
Richmond
Concord
Trenton
Marblehead
Memphis

IJN Nagara Class CLs:
Isuzu
Nagara
Natori

IJN Kuma Class CLs:
Kiso
Kitikami
Kuma
Oi
Tama

IJN Tenryu Class CLs:
Tatsuta
Tenryu


Now according to the section of the new 1930 Treaty above the keels of the replacement ships may all be laid down in 1933. If any keels are laid before 1933 then, according to the 1930 Treaty the cruisers above will need to be "disposed of" BEFORE the 1936 London Treaty. If everyone is smart and patient they wait until 1933 to start laying down keels so that when they go to the 1936 conference they have some more bargaining chips. Of course the 1936 London Treaty ends up regulating the size of individual ships in tonnage, BUT it doesn't regulate the total number of ships a navy may produce. So voila! The obsolete ships above are spared the scrap yard. The UK, US and Japan get to lay down some replacements as early as 1933 for some aging ships AND get to keep the ships they were intending earlier upon replacing!

I would think this might put the building schedules of the nations involved a little ahead of schedule if they can start a building program to replace these ships 3 years ahead. Perhaps empty slips could be filed a little earlier than anticipated.

I'll have to do a little more research to figure out exactly how to accelerate the ship building programs (and or if building programs could be accelerated), but concievably moving schedules ahead by 3 years might maybe lead to things like CL USS Cleveland being completed in 1939. Perhaps even some of the larger CLs or CAs could be converted into CVEs or CVLs relatively quickly.




GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

OR, maybe instead of tinkering with the 1930 London Treaty, I could just tinker with the 1922 Washington Treaty a little.

Since the Japanese fanboys are going to be having this wonderful navy from the website above it seems only fair to Allied fanboys that they get a little extra bang for the buck as well.

So...IRL, it appears that the Akagi (36,500 tons) and especially Kaga (38,200 tons) are in gross violation of Article IX of the 1922 Washington Treaty which gives a 33,000 ton limit for the two largest carriers each country is allowed. So maybe Japan can't hide this very well and the US and UK object. Japan is in a bind. If they cave in and scrap the Akagi and Kaga, then that leaves them with no carriers to experiment with while the US still has the Lexington and Saratoga. If they keep Akagi and Kaga, then the US is demanding that it get to keep FOUR Lexington hulls since they all add up to less than its tonnage limit for carriers.

The decisive battle school still rules Japan in 1922. Carriers are kind of a novelty anyway and won't play a very big role in the decisive battle so it's OK to let the US have whatever advantage there. Unfortunately the UK doesn't have any 33,000 plus ton hulls laid at the moment so it contents itself with Furious, Courageous and Glorious at a whopping total of 82,285 tons.

So the wording is changed in Article IX from a limit of no more than 33,000 tons to a limit of no more than 39,000 tons. This would make even Kaga legal. However, in exchange for allowing these monsters, the US insists the wording is further changed from a limit of two such carriers to a limit of four such carriers so long as the total tonnage does not exceed the country's allowed total tonnage. Therefore, the US is allowed to keep FOUR Lexington hulls and convert them into carriers! Four Lexingtons would add up to 132,000 tons total and would therefore not exceed the 135,000 ton carrier quota for the US.

The Japanese, who are restricted to 80,000 tons of total carrier tonnage have already eaten up almost their entire alotment of carrier tonnage just in the Akagi and Kaga. So they can't build any more right off the cuff.

1922 WASHINGTON TREATY BEFORE TINKERING:
Article IX
No aircraft carrier exceeding 27,000 tons (27,432 metric tons) standard displacement shall be acquired by, or constructed by, for or within the jurisdiction of, any of the Contracting Powers.

However, any of the Contracting Powers may, provided that its total tonnage allowance of aircraft carriers is not thereby exceeded,

Page 251

build not more than two aircraft carriers, each of a tonnage of not more than 33,000 tons (33,528 metric tons) standard displacement, and in order to effect economy any of the Contracting Powers may use for this purpose any two of their ships, whether constructed or in course of construction, which would otherwise be scrapped under the provisions of Article II. The armament of any aircraft carriers exceeding 27,000 tons (27,432 metric tons) standard displacement shall be in accordance with the requirements of Article X, except that the total number of guns to be carried in case any of such guns be of a calibre exceeding 6 inches (152 millimetres), except anti-aircraft guns and guns not exceeding 5 inches (127 millimetres), shall not exceed eight.

AFTER TINKERING:
Article IX
No aircraft carrier exceeding 27,000 tons (27,432 metric tons) standard displacement shall be acquired by, or constructed by, for or within the jurisdiction of, any of the Contracting Powers.

However, any of the Contracting Powers may, provided that its total tonnage allowance of aircraft carriers is not thereby exceeded,

Page 251

build not more than four aircraft carriers, each of a tonnage of not more than 39,000 tons (39,624 metric tons) standard displacement, and in order to effect economy any of the Contracting Powers may use for this purpose any four of their ships, whether constructed or in course of construction, which would otherwise be scrapped under the provisions of Article II. The armament of any aircraft carriers exceeding 27,000 tons (27,432 metric tons) standard displacement shall be in accordance with the requirements of Article X, except that the total number of guns to be carried in case any of such guns be of a calibre exceeding 6 inches (152 millimetres), except anti-aircraft guns and guns not exceeding 5 inches (127 millimetres), shall not exceed eight.

I think I like tinkering with the Washiongton Treaty more than the 1930 London Treaty. Forget the cruisers. Give the US two more Lexington CVs! [:D]

This of course shall be my first attempt at a mod when AE comes out. [8D] Too late to mess with the original.
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John 3rd
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by John 3rd »

Gary,
If you are really thinking about doing this there could be the itneresting chance to do what one of the options was with Charles Evans Hughes.  Let Japan finish her current building program, the US finish the ships authorized in the 1916 Naval Expansion Bill, and Great Britain complete her set of Hoods.  This would be a nice documentable expansion without going TOO far.
 
Also remember the controls on Subs.  You could also allow for more older SS for the campaign.  They might be dated but the Ro- and S- boats are still useful.
 
I'll do a little looking and get the ships that I am referring to.
 
Image

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GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

Hi John 3rd,

Sounds interesting. That might make a good third alternative history scenario to choose from. [8D]

When AE comes out, I was thinking about doing something along the lines of RHS, in the sense of having a couple versions of alternative history to choose from.

a) One version would be much the same as what I have now-a kind of "what if" a few more of the originally planned battlewagons were built-although without sacrificing carriers. (I do want to keep it a carrier war.)

b) A second version might be VERY experimental where the Japanese and Allies are given a chance to remodel their fleets some before they enter into WW2. That's where I'm going in the posts above. If you look at the website cited in the first post there is a pretty reasonably well thought out alternative building program for the Japanese Navy. The guy goes so far as to take into account economic considerations, slip availability etc! Of course it involves a lot of hindsight but the guy does justify a good deal of it. I sort of had in mind something of a "clash of the titans" only with more carriers involved at the outset. Now I just need to figure out what the Allied response could/would be to such an alternative Japanese Navy.

c) So as a third alternative I could maybe add to the mix, "what if" Charles Evans Hughes got his way. Of course it sounds like some early carrier experimentation will be lost, Akagi, Kaga, Lexington, Saratoga. But maybe throw an alternative building program on top of that with more carriers as well. [:)]
el cid again
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by el cid again »

I believe we will not have great difficulty moving scenario data to AE format - using MS Excel. But some fields will have to be added or changed. I believe we can support any difficulties you may encounter.
GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

Thanks Cid! [:)]

If worse comes to worse I can print out a data table of the old mod from Excel and use it to type in the same data into the new database--data entry style. However, I'm definitely not going to try to create another fully functional mod before AE comes out. I'll probably need the extra slots AE is promising.
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John 3rd
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by John 3rd »

I just checked out that website.  Wow... 
 
Pretty well thought out building program.  Who did all that work?  Do we know him?
Image

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GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

I don't know him but I've known of his web site for a couple of years now. That would make a cool mod wouldn't it?

Just need to come up with a few curves for the US and UK to throw back at Japanese fanboys.
GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

Well, while I figure out exactly what the Allies will be using to fight the Japanese fleet mentioned above, the first Japanese ship has been launched.

BB Harima from the alt_naval site above.


Image

Based upon this:

Image
GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

And Japan's main CV, Kairyu class:

Image

Based upon....

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darken92
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by darken92 »

Aftre looking at your other mod I would love to try a mod for AE.  My preference for mods is for them to be more active Japan, so to speak.
 
The more I read about the war the more it is apparent the Japanese never stood a chance.  The more the game is geared toward "realism", aka the AE edition the harder it should be to go crazy as Japan.  Excellent mods such as yours allow a more aggresive opening and have a strong feel of "real" as opposed to some far fetched mods.
"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate...
All those... moments will be lost... in time. Like... tears... in rain."
Mike Scholl
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: darken92
The more I read about the war the more it is apparent the Japanese never stood a chance.  The more the game is geared toward "realism", aka the AE edition the harder it should be to go crazy as Japan.  Excellent mods such as yours allow a more aggresive opening and have a strong feel of "real" as opposed to some far fetched mods.


This is pretty much as it should be. The basic game/scenario should be as historically realistic and accurate as possible. From there, the "modders" can take off in whatever direction interests them..., and as far as their imaginations will take them. But the "foundation" must be "rock solid" and "anchored in reality".
GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

Thanks Darren. [:)] For the second mod I hope the Japanese to be better suited for a war of attrition. There won't be any Yamatos, no miracle weapons, putting all their eggs and funding all in one basket. Instead of a decisive engagement a la Tsushima, the Japanese admiralty will be hoping to wear down the Allied will to continue a long and costly war, at least that's what their theory will be. I'll likely use lessons learned in our team test game to help guide the creation of the next mod.
GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
This is pretty much as it should be. The basic game/scenario should be as historically realistic and accurate as possible. From there, the "modders" can take off in whatever direction interests them..., and as far as their imaginations will take them. But the "foundation" must be "rock solid" and "anchored in reality".

Agree. Ideally it would be great to have a game where the basic mechanics are "anchored in reality", however, the player or modder has a chance to create his own history, based upon what is realistically possible.
Mike Scholl
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
This is pretty much as it should be. The basic game/scenario should be as historically realistic and accurate as possible. From there, the "modders" can take off in whatever direction interests them..., and as far as their imaginations will take them. But the "foundation" must be "rock solid" and "anchored in reality".

Agree. Ideally it would be great to have a game where the basic mechanics are "anchored in reality", however, the player or modder has a chance to create his own history, based upon what is realistically possible.


Not sure "modders" want to be limited to what is "realistically" possible (unless you consider Comic Books to be real). Which is fine..., to each his own flights of fancy. Tying them to reality would cramp their style. Some will seek it..., and some will want to ignore it. Just as long as they can't force you or I to play it; if they want their Yamato to fly, let it fly!
GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

Well a modder wants a 16 inch shell to act like a 16 inch shell. Not all there is to modding is complete fantasy. [8|]
Mike Scholl
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Well a modder wants a 16 inch shell to act like a 16 inch shell. Not all there is to modding is complete fantasy. [8|]


Agreed. But that's part of getting the "basic" (game inclusive) data and scenarios as historically correct as possible. If the "foundation" is rock solid in historical data, OB's, scenarios, and such; it will support whatever someone wants to build on it. If it's 'screwed up", then everything that's built on it will tend to be "screwed up".
GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

Japanese OOB slowly filling up.

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GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

OK. I'm really excited about this mod. [8D] IJN OOB almost complete. Only two more ships to go, remodeled versions of Ise and Fuso classes, each having only 4 turrets a piece.

Basically "shadow" ships are auxiliaries built with the explicit purpose of being modified later into more useful ships. Thus the Japanese build Chitose class AVs with the intention of upgrading them into CVLs at a later date. The ships are initially constructed such that their design lends itself more easily to their intended conversions and thus will require less time to convert than trying to convert an AK into a CVL.

According to the site these were taken from, using shadow ships and a leaner, meaner building program and taking into consideration identical budget and slip availability as was historically the case, the Japanese should have available to them on Dec 7, 1941: 12 BBs, 9 CVs (including an unrefitted Kaga and Akagi), 6 CVLs (including Hosho and Ryujo), plus more CAs, CLs, and DDs. Of course the US will still out build them in the long run.

I'm planning on a few modest but seemingly plausible/possible changes to the US construction program as well.

1) BBs New Mexico, Tennessee and Colorado classes will all receive upgrades in the mid 30s of 5"/38s in single mount turrets (basically the same gun being used on the new DDs being constructed at the time).

2) With the introduction of the twin 5"/38 mount in the late 30s, the US should be able to skip the Fletcher program and go straight to the Allen M. Sumner class. Therefore the US will see Sumner class DDs arriving in mid 1942.

3) In 1939, in addition to Hornet being laid down, a sister ship (4th Yorktown class) is laid down as a stop gap to keep CVs flowing until the new Essex class arrive. Therefore the US does get one extra carrier out of the whole deal.


Image



BTW: AE's new "convert to" feature will be perfect for the "shadow" ships. Then when you pull up one of the Chitose AVs in Osaka harbor, for instance, you should get the options on the bottom left to convert the ship into a carrier (if I understand the setup of the editor in AE correctly). I just need to figure out how to get additional airgroups available for it. [8D]
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GaryChildress
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RE: Tinkering with Treaties...Again

Post by GaryChildress »

Alternative Japanese fleet finished.

Basically these ships are built, upgraded or left un-upgraded in place of Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, No. 111 (4th Yamato class hull laid), Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, all other IJN CVs/CVLs/CVEs except for Ryujo & Hosho, CAs Mogami, Suzuya, Kumano, Mikuma, Tone, Chikuma, and all historic DD programs after 1932.

Source: http://www.geocities.com/alt_naval3/index.htm

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