Not to PBEM

[Ursa MAior]

Some people like just to spend some time with computer wargames (mostly solo players - given the weakness of the AI in most wargames notable exception COTA they play it for fun). IMHO they can be called fans.

Some see a real challenge in computer wargames (like most PBEMers who like to test their skills against other human) these people who usually make their own mods etc. so they take it seriously. They are the grognards or die-hard fans.

Nothing wrong with it. You cant compare apples to oranges. Or a Ferrari to a Hummer. [;)]

Why are you people so touchy? If he likes to put it honestly what is wrong with it?

You have to agree that playing against a hamster is inferior to playing chess against that above bunny . [;)]

Playing against mammals of higher ranks is EVEN more interesting believe me.

One last question. Do you play FPS in SP or MP? Is not it more fun to play against 20+ thinking and randomly acting players? Even if you (or at least me [;)]) cannot get enough frags to be in the top half?

[Monkeys Brain]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Please disregard....not worth it.

I saw your original post too. True to my politicaly uncorrect self I have no problems with Ravinhood's KKK or your goose stepping ot ethnic references - even though I find them simply unnecessary, off topic in this thread and missing the point completely.

Goose stepping, ethnic cleansing, Nazi mud throwing is especially funny coming from someone with Nazi dude in his avatar (I guess he wasn't "Nazi" he was just honest German fighting for his country right? [:D])

I'd love to see my avatar do the goose step (really I would).

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Please disregard....not worth it.

Whoops - I read your original post, typed a response and was about to post it - here goes anyway :

Eh, if I may add my $.05 here : I’ve known (in the ‘Net sense) Mr. Mastruko for about a decade now - “brutally direct” is a good description of his posting style and if you’re sensitive about wording niceties you might even call it “rude”, but linking his posting style to political stuff based on where he hails from – in other words : his ethnicity – is also far from polite. Pot – kettle and all that.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

That's why I removed it Eddy......sinking to the other person's level and all that.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Some people like just to spend some time with computer wargames (mostly solo players - given the weakness of the AI in most wargames notable exception COTA they play it for fun). IMHO they can be called fans.

Some see a real challenge in computer wargames (like most PBEMers who like to test their skills against other human) these people who usually make their own mods etc. so they take it seriously. They are the grognards or die-hard fans.

Nothing wrong with it. You cant compare apples to oranges. Or a Ferrari to a Hummer. [;)]

Why are you people so touchy? If he likes to put it honestly what is wrong with it?

You have to agree that playing against a hamster is inferior to playing chess against that above bunny . [;)]

Playing against mammals of higher ranks is EVEN more interesting believe me.

One last question. Do you play FPS in SP or MP? Is not it more fun to play against 20+ thinking and randomly acting players? Even if you (or at least me [;)]) cannot get enough frags to be in the top half?

Personally, I don't play FPS at all. But I do play H2H with real, breathing, thinking human opponents. I do so one night a week in a format that may be a bit passe in this cybereletronic world....it's called F2F.

Making thinly veiled references to people as idiots because they aren't interested in playing H2H electronically just shows an incredible level of naivte as there is no way for anyone here to know enough about anyone else to be able to judge their intellectual capabilities baased on a few forum posts and without any knowledge of any other formats by which they may well be getting very challenging H2H play.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

That's why I removed it Eddy......sinking to the other person's level and all that.

If you think that's sinking you sank already. You can't un-sink by deleting the post.

Which, somehow, reminds me of the old naval saying - all ships can submerge, only submarines can resurface. (Here we see, ladies and gentlemen, Hans Bolter from s.Pz.Abt 502 doing the resurfacing trick, after he accused another guy of practising goose step [:D] )

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

That's why I removed it Eddy......sinking to the other person's level and all that.

If you think that's sinking you sank already. You can't un-sink by deleting the post.

Which, somehow, reminds me of the old naval saying - all ships can submerge, only submarines can resurface. (Here we see, ladies and gentlemen, Hans Bolter from s.Pz.Abt 502 doing the resurfacing trick, after he accused another guy of practising goose step [:D] )

Yes, Oleg, I DID sink to your level. No I can't take back what I did. Yes, I DO deserve to have my nose rubbed in what I did, but that doesn't automatically mean that mature and considerate adults will choose to do so in public. What I could and did do was clean up my mess so it isn't there for all to see for all eternity. That's what a mature adult does after realizing they have behaved childishly!

Did you enjoy you're childish little game of finger pointing and nose rubbing? Was it fun for you? I certainly hope so, because all it did for you here was to brand you for the child you are.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
I'd love to see my avatar do the goose step (really I would).

Watch out or they'll be calling you a sexist, male chauvinist pig next.

Which, regretably, I would have to concur with [;)]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
I'd love to see my avatar do the goose step (really I would).

I'd rather watch Adele do the Can-Can, or maybe the Horizontal Bop, but that's just me.

The way I look at it, gaming is much the same as sex. Both are usually "best" when done with a living, breathing partner. And, the more "competent" the partner, the more enjoyment I would expect out of it. However, that said, there are times when a good wank (mental, or otherwise) can be a fast, fun, and relieving exercise that can be done in the privacy of your own room, without the muss and fuss of commitment, fear of performing, or worries about whether your partner will be there (and respect you) when you wake up.

It doesn't matter to me what sort of partner somebody wants. If someone wants to play with themselves, I'm fine with that, too. People do need to realize however, that it is a lot more difficult, and expensive, to build and program the MentaWargasm 5000 to perform adequately under most conditions than it is to enlist a willing, living partner.

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to take my level 37 Female Templar through the dark, dripping caverns of Hades and slaughter some demons of my own...[;)]

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Personally, I don't play FPS at all. But I do play H2H with real, breathing, thinking human opponents. I do so one night a week in a format that may be a bit passe in this cybereletronic world....it's called F2F.

Making thinly veiled references to people as idiots because they aren't interested in playing H2H electronically just shows an incredible level of naivte as there is no way for anyone here to know enough about anyone else to be able to judge their intellectual capabilities baased on a few forum posts and without any knowledge of any other formats by which they may well be getting very challenging H2H play.

Whoa. And I should be trembling now should not I?

[;)]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE[;)]

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
I saw your original post too. True to my politicaly uncorrect self I have no problems with Ravinhood's KKK or your goose stepping ot ethnic references - even though I find them simply unnecessary, off topic in this thread and missing the point completely.

Goose stepping, ethnic cleansing, Nazi mud throwing is especially funny coming from someone with Nazi dude in his avatar (I guess he wasn't "Nazi" he was just honest German fighting for his country right? [:D])

I'd love to see my avatar do the goose step (really I would).

I was just about to say that.

[BoredStiff]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Some games are SO COMPLEX I find it totally ridicolous that people even have the nerve to ask for the challenging AI.

That's what irks me too.

I realized 20 years ago that AI was never going amount to much. I remember I had been playing Grigsby's War in the South Pacific as the American for about a month when I finally realized the Japanese AI never built new bases. Since building new bases was central to even having a chance at winning, it was obvious that the AI could never win. Maybe the fact that one had to turn the floppy disk over to it's backside to enter the base-building routine is why the AI could never do it, LOL. What a disappointment that was though. Like creeping arthritis, it hurts just to think about it, even 20 years later. Baaaad, baaaaaad Grigsby! [;)]

Then I spent the decade of the 90's wishing all the wargames were PBEM'able. The only thing many of them lacked was the ability to save the game after each player's turn, which might have enabled folks to exchange save files - but no, they only allowed saves at the end of a complete game turn. Grrrrrr.....
There were a couple of exceptions, such as Second Front (Amiga version of War in Russia), which I PBEM'd for the better part of 1994. For the most part though, wargames from 1990's were not PBEM'able.

So here we are, 20 years later, and people still b*tch about "bad AI". I think oftentimes people start these topics out of sheer boredom, which makes sense, since they're tired of playing the AI.

HPS has been mentioned uptopic. Frankly, I think they're smart for not having a discussion forum.

[BoredStiff]

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
I agree 100%. To me the advantage of computer wargaming is not the PBEM or PvP capability but a challenging (hopefully) computer opponent to play against.

The key phrase in that sentence is "To me..."

If I had the time or inclination to play against someone else, I would rather play a boardgame.

That's your preference. Good for you.

There are relatively few computer wargames that are designed from the bottom up with only PBEM or multiplayer in mind.

True. Only a couple come to mind, such as Computer War in Europe and the old Avalon Hill Computer Third Reich. There are probably a couple of others I can't think of offhand, but they are small in number, so agreed.
But this point is irrelevant, since no one in this thread has argued against having an AI entirely. We merely prefer to have a solid, cheat-proof PBEM system built in, as well as more features, instead of spending precious resources trying to reach unattainable AI dreams.

The multiplayer and PBEM aspects of most games are only a bonus.

Used to be true, but not anymore in regard to wargames (I noticed you cleverly wrote games, instead of wargames, although that might have just been an oversight [;)]). Some of the more popular wargames of recent years - and in particular those that have stayed popular for a good number of years - have been those that have put an emphasis on PBEM ability. These games would not have retained their popularity had it not been for the PBEM aspect. Included in these is the entire HPS (Tiller) line, the Combat Mission series and increasingly many of the Matrix titles.
Thankfully, wargame developers are realizing that a solid, secure PBEM routine is a must for a wargame title to be successful.

Even a majority of board wargames come with solo rules.

Absolutely false. I have a smallish board wargame collection and, offhand, I can't think of a single one that has a solo routine built in. Granted, all my board wargames are old, but I frequent BoardGameGeek and I certainly don't see a majority of board wargames as having solo routines built in.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: BoredStiff

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Some games are SO COMPLEX I find it totally ridicolous that people even have the nerve to ask for the challenging AI.

That's what irks me too.

I realized 20 years ago that AI was never going amount to much. I remember I had been playing Grigsby's War in the South Pacific as the American for about a month when I finally realized the Japanese AI never built new bases. Since building new bases was central to even having a chance at winning, it was obvious that the AI could never win. Maybe the fact that one had to turn the floppy disk over to it's backside to enter the base-building routine is why the AI could never do it, LOL. What a disappointment that was though. Like creeping arthritis, it hurts just to think about it, even 20 years later. Baaaad, baaaaaad Grigsby! [;)]

Then I spent the decade of the 90's wishing all the wargames were PBEM'able. The only thing many of them lacked was the ability to save the game after each player's turn, which might have enabled folks to exchange save files - but no, they only allowed saves at the end of a complete game turn. Grrrrrr.....
There were a couple of exceptions, such as Second Front (Amiga version of War in Russia), which I PBEM'd for the better part of 1994. For the most part though, wargames from 1990's were not PBEM'able.

So here we are, 20 years later, and people still b*tch about "bad AI". I think oftentimes people start these topics out of sheer boredom, which makes sense, since they're tired of palying the AI.

HPS has been mentioned uptopic. Frankly, I think they're smart for not having a discussion forum.

As long as I'm paying for it, I reserve the right to b*tch about it if it sucks.

To paraphrase:

"Some games are SO COMPLEX I find it totally corrupt that companies even have the nerve to claim they have a challenging AI.


As for not playing PBEM because I'm "introverted", as someone previously said, that has nothing to do with it. I have no problem going online and being humilated by 12 year olds playing Halo. Because it's not only challenging but it's fun. Making a commitment to play a monster wargame for several years, even if it would be undoubtedly challenging, is not my idea of fun.

[BoredStiff]

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

A thought just occured to me regarding this PBEM AI argument. Just because you play against a human instead of an AI doesn't necessarily raise the scale on the intelligence factor. There are some AI's that show more intelligence than any person. At least that's the way it is in my neighborhood.

LOL, it is precisely because of statements like this that some people tend to label your side's arguments as laughable.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: BoredStiff

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

A thought just occured to me regarding this PBEM AI argument. Just because you play against a human instead of an AI doesn't necessarily raise the scale on the intelligence factor. There are some AI's that show more intelligence than any person. At least that's the way it is in my neighborhood.

LOL, it is precisely because of statements like this that some people tend to label your side's arguments as laughable.

And being laughable is much worse than being an arrogant pr!ck.

[mikul82]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior


One last question. Do you play FPS in SP or MP? Is not it more fun to play against 20+ thinking and randomly acting players? Even if you (or at least me [;)]) cannot get enough frags to be in the top half?

Although not directed at me, I actually don't like FPS games online much either, the only exception being Red Orchestra due to it's emphasis on teamwork, actual tactics, and damage modelling that doesn't require you to unload half of an MG clip into someone to kill them. Playing just about every other one has been fun for about an hour total, but it's just the same thing over and over again, and there always has to be huge numbers of people named something like "OMGROXXORIPWNNOOBS!!" running around, talking trash over the voice chat (worst thing to ever happen to general FPS online arenas), and team-killing everyone in sight.

Online "RPGS" are just as bad, usually without any role playing involved at all and are really just online point and click, hack and slash powerlevelling fests. The ever present players named something like "OMGROXXORIPWNNOOBS!!" are also there to do their part in destroying whatever immersion is left anyway.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: BoredStiff
Used to be true, but not anymore in regard to wargames (I noticed you cleverly wrote games, instead of wargames, although that might have just been an oversight [;)]). Some of the more popular wargames of recent years - and in particular those that have stayed popular for a good number of years - have been those that have put an emphasis on PBEM ability. These games would not have retained their popularity had it not been for the PBEM aspect. Included in these is the entire HPS (Tiller) line, the Combat Mission series and increasingly many of the Matrix titles.
Thankfully, wargame developers are realizing that a solid, secure PBEM routine is a must for a wargame title to be successful.

When I personally most unscientifically surveyed ~500 computer wargamers a few years back ~75% of respondants stated A.I. as their primary playing preference followed by ~20% for PBEM and ~5% for Network TCP/IP as their first choice. The truth is that A.I. players will likely always remain the silent majority while perhaps it may still be true that more often than not it is the PBEM player who becomes the "squeky wheel", nit-picking, die-hard fan that posts alot and/or otherwise keeps the game alive (whether only in appearance or quite probably in actuality as well). I would not personally mistake this as some sort of requirement to emphasize PBEM play over A.I. in a game.

The simple truth is, from a wargame developmental standpoint, if you don't factor in the A.I. every step of the way you are shooting yourself and your game for sure. If your PBEM support is slightly lacking, by comparison, all you really need deal with are half a dozen diehards who will never let the issue die. Again, maybe that is enough.

Even a majority of board wargames come with solo rules.

Absolutely false. I have a smallish board wargame collection and, offhand, I can't think of a single one that has a solo routine built in. Granted, all my board wargames are old, but I frequent BoardGameGeek and I certainly don't see a majority of board wargames as having solo routines built in.

[/quote]

Solo routines or not, Don Greenwood himself went on the record near AH's demise stating that the majority of board wargames were being played solitaire more often than not (Actually various AH staff covered this quite frequently and originally it led to the solitaire ranking that appeared on each gamebox). Quite probably simply because opponents could not get together frequently enough compared to the time one had by oneself... But, from a boardgame standpoint, if it was true then It's most certainly true now. Well Vassal aside I suppose.

For the record, I personally enjoy all 3.. Solo against the A.I., PBEM, and the forgotten Network TCP/IP...

For the true diehard experience nothing beats an online Network Game. PBEM is an antiquated technique anyway. There is zero benefit to PBEM vs a server side system that allows both online play and or a repositary for exchanging turns and other info. By design such a system would allow browsing of anyones game as an AAR much like you can "watch" any good online game today. That is only the tip of the iceberg of what could be done.

But do that at the expense of A.I?... Suicide.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: mlc82
Although not directed at me, I actually don't like FPS games online much either, the only exception being Red Orchestra due to it's emphasis on teamwork, actual tactics, and damage modelling that doesn't require you to unload half of an MG clip into someone to kill them. Playing just about every other one has been fun for about an hour total, but it's just the same thing over and over again, and there always has to be huge numbers of people named something like "OMGROXXORIPWNNOOBS!!" running around, talking trash over the voice chat (worst thing to ever happen to general FPS online arenas), and team-killing everyone in sight.

Online "RPGS" are just as bad, usually without any role playing involved at all and are really just online point and click, hack and slash powerlevelling fests. The ever present players named something like "OMGROXXORIPWNNOOBS!!" are also there to do their part in destroying whatever immersion is left anyway.

Well it is EXACTLY what it is like to play a competitive tabletop wargame (say DBM/DBA or any of the Games Workshop table top games).

First you dive head on and play ANYBODY. After meeting quazillion idiots, rules lawyers, powergamers etc. you pick another game. Then you realize it is not the game but the people who play it. It is so with ANY games to be precise. Be it poker, bridge, collectible card games, rock and scissors or airsoft.
If you play for winning you will have a lot of dissappointments until you get to a level where you are above the average. If you play for fun (not easy sometimes) you are more likely to have pleasant times. And for that you usually need a human opponent.

As of FPSs. I played COD2 to the death but after 1-2 months of playing 3-7 hours a day I became picky and only played on those servers, and with those people who were my kind. E.g. I did not like search and destroy, so even if my clan played it I stayed out. I know that RO attracts serious gamers maybe one day I will try it out.

[HansBolter]

In my MMORG days I encountered a plethora of "twenty-somethings going on thirteen"......it seems they all migrated to the PBEM world!